Snatch Steal Vs Giant Trunade

Discussion in 'Rules Questions (YGO)' started by Tonylaudat, May 17, 2005.

  1. Tonylaudat

    Tonylaudat New Member

    I was just wondering what would happen to a stolen monster (via Snatch Steal) if someone played Giant Trunade removing Snatch Steal from the field?
  2. chaosruler

    chaosruler New Member

    The monster is returned to the original controller

    -chaosruler
  3. Bill

    Bill Team Ignition

    This is correct because [ycard="SRL-EN036"]Snatch Steal[/ycard] still has a target, unlike when the monster that [ycard="SRL-EN036"]Snatch Steal[/ycard] is equipped to is turned facedown. As [ycard="SRL-EN036"]Snatch Steal[/ycard] cannot target a facedown monster, the person who controlled it at the time it went facedown would keep control of the monster.
  4. StRiKe_NiNjA

    StRiKe_NiNjA Dimension Shift Ninja

    This is because the target isn't irrelevent, it can be determined since the target is still face-up on the field.
  5. Tonylaudat

    Tonylaudat New Member

    Just wondering, how can Snatch Steal still have a target if it is no longer on the field? We know what its target was, but can Snatch Steal really have a target if it no longer exists on the field?
  6. daivahataka

    daivahataka Gold Member

    But the point is that at the time it leaves the field it can still see which monster was it's target and as such the monster is returned.
  7. Digital Jedi

    Digital Jedi Administrator Staff Member

    I don't see it that way. Since it is an Equip Card then I see it's effect as a 'binding' effect that holds the card to the field as long as it's equiped. When it becomes unequipped then it can no longer bind themonster to that side of the field. I don't think targeting is really an issue other than the continuous targeting that all equip cards perform. Flipping th equipped monster face-down however just gives the monster no place to go.
  8. daivahataka

    daivahataka Gold Member

    Whether the monster is face up or face down has no impact on returning it normally, e.g. BoM on a monster you've taken with Change of Heart doesn't stop it returning. The reason that Snatch Steal doesn't return it when BoM flips the monster face down is that it can no longer determine the monster to which it was equipped and so which monster should be returned (easier to understand if you imagine multiple face down monsters on the field).
  9. squid

    squid removed from play

    would the same hold for effects that remove a monster from play and return them?

    Im thinking of if [ycard="PSV-EN069"]Dimensionhole[/ycard] or [ycard="SD1-EN026"]Interdimensional Matter Transporter[/ycard] were used on a monster under the influence of [ycard="SRL-EN036"]Snatch Steal[/ycard].

    When the monster returns, will it stay on the side of the field of the player who activated [ycard="SRL-EN036"]Snatch Steal[/ycard]? (assuming its the same player who played IMT/[ycard="PSV-EN069"]Dimensionhole[/ycard]/DD Gate/etc.)
  10. masterwoo0

    masterwoo0 NINJA4LIFE

    If you remove a monster from play that was under the effect of [ycard="SRL-EN036"]Snatch Steal[/ycard], when it returns, it will go to the side of the field it was on when it was under the control of [ycard="SRL-EN036"]Snatch Steal[/ycard], then revert back to the owner/controller (the person who "legally" takes him home after the Match), since it is no longer under the control of a card that changes control of a monster to another player.
  11. Digital Jedi

    Digital Jedi Administrator Staff Member

    [ycard="SYE-030"]Change of Heart[/ycard] places a condition on the monster that requires it to return at the end of the turn. Aside from that, it is a Normal Spell Card. The general application for Equip Cards doesn't apply here.

    [ycard="SYE-030"]Change of Heart[/ycard] and [ycard="WC5-EN003"]Mind Control[/ycard] should never be used to explain a function of [ycard="SRL-EN036"]Snatch Steal[/ycard]. They are not equips and the basic function behind them is completley different.
  12. daivahataka

    daivahataka Gold Member

    I was merely pointing out that your arguement/point that
    has nothing to do with it, a monster which is due to be returned is still returned regardless of whether it's face up or face down. The reason [ycard="SRL-EN036"]Snatch Steal[/ycard] won't return the monster is that it no longer knows which monster it's supposed to be returning since the monster is now face down, and as such effectively invisible to it.
  13. Digital Jedi

    Digital Jedi Administrator Staff Member

    Ah, but the monster being flipped face-down does have something to do with it. Lets clear something up here. [ycard="SRL-EN036"]Snatch Steal[/ycard] is not returning the monster. The monster returns because the monster is no longer affected by [ycard="SRL-EN036"]Snatch Steal[/ycard]. If [ycard="SRL-EN036"]Snatch Steal[/ycard] could send the monster back in this way, then it couldn't return the monster to other side of the field if it were negated. No, simply the monster returns because it is no longer equipped and the continuous effect of the equip no longer applies. If flipped face-down [ycard="SRL-EN036"]Snatch Steal[/ycard] is no longer a factor in determining the monster's location. The monster getting flipped back face down simply makes it an unknown as far as control is concerned.

    Like I said, [ycard="SYE-030"]Change of Heart[/ycard] and [ycard="WC5-EN003"]Mind Control[/ycard] place a condition on the monster that make them due to be returned, [ycard="SRL-EN036"]Snatch Steal[/ycard] does not. Niether does [ycard="SD2-EN020"]Creature Swap[/ycard]. But the fundimental difference between [ycard="SRL-EN036"]Snatch Steal[/ycard] and all those other control changers is the fact that it is an equip with a continuous effect that either aplies or it doesn't.
  14. Tonylaudat

    Tonylaudat New Member

    I still don't get how [ycard="SYE-030"]Change of Heart[/ycard]/[ycard="WC5-EN003"]Mind Control[/ycard] put a condition on the monster requiring it to return. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but don't most (if not all) other cards that have the phrase on it "Until end of Turn" simply expire at the end of the turn in which it was played? Why would [ycard="SYE-030"]Change of Heart[/ycard]/[ycard="WC5-EN003"]Mind Control[/ycard] be any different?

    I was aslo wondering, since the only way that a monster can be on you opponent's side of the field is through a card effect (either another card's effect or its own), then why does flipping a stolen monster face down affect this general rule? Since monsters do not always need effects to return to their original controler, then why doesn't a Stolen monster once flipped face down simply return to its original controler since [ycard="SRL-EN036"]Snatch Steal[/ycard] is no longer affecting it in any way? If flipping the monster face down means that [ycard="SRL-EN036"]Snatch Steal[/ycard] is no longer a determining factor in who gets control of the monster, then why doesn't the monster simply return to the player who it was stolen from since there is no effect telling it to remain with the person who stole it in the first place?
  15. 1) Both [ycard="WC5-EN003"]Mind Control[/ycard] and [ycard="SYE-030"]Change of Heart[/ycard] say "until the End Phase" meaning you at some point determine when that effect ends.

    2) When a "[ycard="SRL-EN036"]Snatch Steal[/ycard]"-ed monster is flipped face down, the game "forgets" what it was. It simply becomes a face-down Monster. "[ycard="SRL-EN036"]Snatch Steal[/ycard]" makes no mention of when the monster returns to the opponent (after all, it is an Equip Card). You just end up in control of your opponent's monster in that scenario.

    I know it seems contradictory but when the monster is face up and SS leaves the field, the effect that was binding it is gone so the monster returns. If the monster is flipped face-down, SS is destroyed by game mechanic and by game mechanic (since there was no other time condition as to when that monster would return) it no longer is "the opponent's [ycard="CT1-EN002"]Blade Knight[/ycard]" for example... it's just "a set monster".
  16. Digital Jedi

    Digital Jedi Administrator Staff Member

    The monster wouldn't return if the effect didn't specificaly say so. Does [ycard="SD2-EN020"]Creature Swap[/ycard]'s effect linger around the field until the monster leave the field? No. But the monsters stay where they are anyway. With your way of thinking [ycard="SD2-EN020"]Creature Swap[/ycard]s effect would have to be the lingering condition hanging around the field until the monsters leave it, and that just isn't the case.


    Leaving th field is completly different. There is no way to control another person's monster outside of the field. Sure some effects do place your card in your opponent's deck, but those are unique effects and are very clear as to how they work. But control changers, so far, only affect the field. Not the Graveyard or the RFG area. This is true of any effect that doesn't designate the Graveyard or the RFG area in its text.

    If you look at the effect of [ycard="SYE-030"]Change of Heart[/ycard] and [ycard="WC5-EN003"]Mind Control[/ycard] as effects that simply time-out at the end of the turn then the whole face-down issue is not going to make any sense. Not all effects simply expire at the end of the turn. Some activate at the end of the turn. Some only apply at the end of the turn. Some linger around the field until the end of the turn. What you do, is cross reference other rulings and extrapolate thier function from there. The control changer rulings all differ based on thier card type and duration, but they explain each other if you study thier respective rulings in context.
  17. Tonylaudat

    Tonylaudat New Member

    Why can't [ycard="SYE-030"]Change of Heart[/ycard]/[ycard="WC5-EN003"]Mind Control[/ycard] simply time out, and the monster affected simply returns because there is no longer an effect to keep it on you opponets side of the field? The effect of [ycard="SYE-030"]Change of Heart[/ycard]/ [ycard="WC5-EN003"]Mind Control[/ycard] doesn't specificaly say that it returns the monster to you at the end phase of that turn, rather the effect says that you opponet gets to keep control of the targeted monster until then end phase of that turn. [ycard="SYE-030"]Change of Heart[/ycard]/[ycard="WC5-EN003"]Mind Control[/ycard] is a one shot deal (like any normal spell card) that simply has a duration. Also, if "some linger around the field until the end of the turn", then why can't this be the case with [ycard="SYE-030"]Change of Heart[/ycard]/ [ycard="WC5-EN003"]Mind Control[/ycard]?

    Why can't [ycard="SD2-EN020"]Creature Swap[/ycard] create a lingering effect that keeps the monsters switched until they are destoried or removed from the field (since the general rule is that you need an effect to have an opponet's monster on your side of the field)?

    Digital Jedi said "The control changer rulings all differ based on thier card type and duration, but they explain each other if you study thier respective rulings in context."

    Is there a ruling somewhere that says that [ycard="SYE-030"]Change of Heart[/ycard]/[ycard="WC5-EN003"]Mind Control[/ycard] actually returns the targeted monster to your opponet at the end phase of the turn in which it was activated? I've looked on the rulings on this site, and www.yugioh-card.com, and I've yet to find anything on the subject of how control is returned to the original control.
  18. Let's take [ycard="SYE-030"]Change of Heart[/ycard].
    Let's look at the text on the card:

    Select 1 monster on your opponent's side of the field. Take control of the selected monster until the End Phase of this turn.

    Ok. This means that at the End Phase, you no longer have control of the selected monster. So if I don't have control, the opponent must regain control. That alone should be ruling enough.
  19. Digital Jedi

    Digital Jedi Administrator Staff Member

    I never said they didn't linger till the end of the turn. How else could I say that they are returned by the effect at the end unless they lingered? But your theory of the effect simply expiring in the End Phase and after the effect shuts off your monster goes back by default creates a problem.

    The general problem with that is now your creating a game mechanic that contradicts exisiting rulings. This is what I meant by comparing the other rulings and extraoplating how their effects work from there.

    The ruling from the judges list is: "If a monster with "[ycard="SRL-EN036"]Snatch Steal[/ycard]" equipped to it is flipped face-down, control of the monster remains with the person that originally used "[ycard="SRL-EN036"]Snatch Steal[/ycard]" to take control of the monster."

    So the face-down monster doesn't go back. Thats the ruling and we're going to accept it for the purposes of this example. There is no effect directly affecting the monster any longer. Face-down it stays on whatever side of the field it's on regardless of who owned it originally. Now let's apply your "expires at the end of the turn" theory.

    We "steal" a face-down monster with [ycard="SYE-030"]Change of Heart[/ycard]/[ycard="WC5-EN003"]Mind Control[/ycard] and then the End Phase is reached. If the effect of these cards is not directly responsilble for returning the monster at the end of the turn then the effect simply 'shuts off'. But we just read that when control of a card changes and it's flipped face-down and no effect is directly affecting it or telling it where to go, it stays.

    So with your theory applied, a face-down monster siezed with [ycard="SYE-030"]Change of Heart[/ycard] et al wouldn't return if flipped face-down or if stolen face-down to begin with. And we both know that isn't the case. The only way for face-downs to return, based on the current rulings, would be due to a direct effect, not due to a time-out of an effect.
  20. DJ: 1 minor correction. "[ycard="AST-037"]Enemy Controller[/ycard]" cannot be used to take control of a face-down monster.

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