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Oooh... Here's an interesting question...

Discussion in 'Rules Questions (YGO)' started by Jason_C, Feb 4, 2006.

  1. Jason_C

    Jason_C Banned

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    This one just occurred to me as a result of the thread about threatening roar, where cropz pointed out that you can activate it when the opponent intends to exit Main Phase 1. Here's my question:

    What is the exact timing window for determining if a Battle Phase will be conducted or not?

    Example:

    Enter Main Phase 1, P1 elects to kick it off by summoning Gemini Elf.

    Response window, both players pass.

    Non-responsive window, P1 passes, AKA declares his wish to exit Main Phase 1. At this point, does he say if he intends to conduct a Batte Phase? Or does he wait until AFTER P2 has passed, where an infinitessimal timing window occurs to determine if there will be a Battle Phase?

    And, if it is the former and not the latter, let's suppose the opponent did NOT pass. Let's suppose he activated something that CHANGED P1'S MIND about whether he wants a Battle Phase. Now what? Do we resolve the current chain, have another opportunity for response, and then repeat the process? Or is he bound to the decision previously made?

    I'm inclined to believe an infinitessimal window occurs for this decision, to prevent the arguments that may occur if it were not for this window. But I wouldn't know.
  2. Cropz

    Cropz New Member

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    actually, the turn player should say something like: "I don't want to do Anything else, do you want to activate anything or should we move on to the next phase?"
    that's what's commonly refered as "End of X Phase", but that's not really the END.
    if the non-turn player activates anything that makes the turn player change his mind about something, he can certainly go back and do whatever he wishes before proceeding.
    with that in mind, it should be clear that the next phase is not decided at this point, but only after the Phase is actually finished.
  3. Jason_C

    Jason_C Banned

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    I'm not disputing any of that, and I knew it. My question pertains to the act of deciding if there will be a BP or not. That is an actual action, which must have timing.
  4. Cropz

    Cropz New Member

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    the last line answers that question.
    you'll decide whether you're proceeding to the Battle Phase or the End Phase after the Main Phase 1 is actually finished.
  5. Jason_C

    Jason_C Banned

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    So you agree with me about the infinitessimal window?
  6. Cropz

    Cropz New Member

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    whatever that means, yes :p
  7. masterwoo0

    masterwoo0 NINJA4LIFE

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    How can there be a window if there isnt going to be a Battle Phase?

    The Turn Player is the deciding factor on if there will be one, and until then, the opponent can do nothing but wait.

    The turn player, if you really wanted to be a "Donkey", could drag his feet on deciding whether to enter his Battle Phase or go straight to End Phase, by looking at his hand, graveyard, removed from play, face-down spell and traps, face-down monsters, opponents graveyard, ask to see opponents face-up monsters, spells and traps, etc... Then, after all that, decide NOT to Battle.

    So, where is the window for anyone but the Turn Player in this scenario?

    If the turn player states that he has nothing else to activate and would like to "End" Main Phase 1, why must he declare what Phase he would like to enter at that point? They are only agreeing or not agreeing to end the Main Phase 1.
  8. slither

    slither Alex (1981 - 2008)<br />Slithery When Wet

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    I agree with masterwoo0, I believe the only "window's" would come at the declaration of "finishing a phase" and at the declaration of "beggining a phase":

    IE:

    Turn Player says: "Ok, im ending my MP1" after all necessary responses have been made, TP says: "Ok now I will enter my BP", or "Ok i'll move ahead directly to the EP".
  9. Jason_C

    Jason_C Banned

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    You misunderstand my use of the term "window". I do not mean a response window. Just a window for something to occur, in this case, the TP's decision on phases.
  10. slither

    slither Alex (1981 - 2008)<br />Slithery When Wet

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    Wouldn't it fit the same category of passing of Steps?
  11. Cropz

    Cropz New Member

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    well, in fewer words, that's what I said :p
  12. novastar

    novastar New Member

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    No at the point you decide to end the Main Phase it is 1 choice, not 2.

    You choose to "Proceed to End Phase" or "Proceed to Battle Phase"

    It is not 2 windows only 1.

    At any non-response in MP1 you get 4 choices:

    - Summon a monster
    - Activate an effect
    - End Phase and go to Battle Phase
    - End Phase and go End Phase

    Once you Normal Summon the first choice goes away. But these 4 exist at every non-response for the Turn Player.

    Just because the TP decides he wants to the end the Phase does not mean that it will absolutely happen, it is an attempt. An opportunity for the OP to continue the Main Phase.

    If something were to occur (activation for example), you would go through all neccessary motions, be it resolutions, response chain...and then get another non-response to decide again.
  13. Complex_Mind

    Complex_Mind Deck Mechanic

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    Why can't the TP just enter the BP and pass on attacking?

    As far as I know you can enter your battle phase and not declare an attack. So what's the problem?
  14. slither

    slither Alex (1981 - 2008)<br />Slithery When Wet

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    It is possible to enter a BP and not attack, but this matters have to be addressed as there many factors that could involve not going through the BP.

    For instance [ycard="DR1-EN006"]Helpoemer[/ycard].
  15. Jason_C

    Jason_C Banned

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    The more I think about it, the more I think I was right the first time. And by "think about it", I mean "read novastar's post".
  16. masterwoo0

    masterwoo0 NINJA4LIFE

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    I guess I am just lost.

    I really dont understand why a window matters if both players have not a[ycard="SOD-EN055"]Greed[/ycard] to end a phase.

    [ycard="FET-EN052"]Threatening Roar[/ycard] can be activated all the way up to your opponent declaring an attack, which means, as soon as you enter your Draw Phase, your opponent has several opportunities, and if that is where "windows" would be used, then that's clear.

    As it has been stated, even if the Turn Player wishes to end a particular phase, the opponent can still activate an effect, which is all he can ever do, since it isnt his turn. He cant summon a monster without using an effect. He cant activate a Quick-Play or Trap if he doesnt have anything set, or, an effect that allows him to do so. So, in theory, as long as the opponent can activate an effect, and does not agree to "End Phase", he can continue to do so, preventing the passage to the next phase, regardless of which one.

    Once both players agree to move on from, let's say "Standby Phase", it's too late to go back and say, "Wait, before you go to Main Phase 1, I activate [ycard="MFC-042"]Thunder of Ruler[/ycard]!"

    All that does is create confusion, since it was already a[ycard="SOD-EN055"]Greed[/ycard] upon to close out the phase they were in. That's why "both players must agree", and not, "turn player can be satisfied that he's done".
  17. Jason_C

    Jason_C Banned

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    Not surprising, this debate is quite abstract, to put it mildly.

    See, here's the thing: For the most part, I agree with everything you just said. You've correctly and completely explained the mechanics of determining to proceed to the next phase. But then, there's a problem: What defines the "next phase"? If the current phase is MP1, then at what exact point is it decided if the next phase is BP or EP? And I must agree with Nova.
  18. masterwoo0

    masterwoo0 NINJA4LIFE

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    That's why I said I'm lost, because the turn player does not have to make a "choice" immediately, and since both players a[ycard="SOD-EN055"]Greed[/ycard] to end Main Phase 1, until the Turn Player decides which Phase he wishes to proceed to, the Opponent must wait to proceed as well, since the Turn Player's selection affects both players.

    On one hand, the opponent may have an effect, such as [ycard="DR1-EN006"]Helpoemer[/ycard] that activates with the Battle Phase as the trigger, while the Turn Player may have a [ycard="IOC-013"]Berserk Gorilla[/ycard] face-up.

    The opponent cannot "force" a selection to be made either way, and can only remove one option by effect, which is, to prevent the Battle Phase altogether, only leaving the End Phase of the Turn.
  19. Jason_C

    Jason_C Banned

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    So what you're saying is, you vote for the latter of the two choices presented in the original thread? Hoo boy, now I'm mixed up again.

    See, this is why I made this thread: The issue isn't as straightforward as it seems.

    And while I'd gladly type up a 9-page speech on my opinions, I have so much metal in my hands right now that every character I type is painful. Ouch...
  20. masterwoo0

    masterwoo0 NINJA4LIFE

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    To simplify it as much as possible...

    Turn Player has already summoned and used the effect of [ycard="DB2-EN061"]Cannon Soldier[/ycard] to tribute a [ycard="SDJ-041"]Scapegoat[/ycard] Token.

    Both players have activate Quick-Plays and Traps, with Turn Player activating [ycard="SD5-EN030"]Lightning Vortex[/ycard] and discarding [ycard="DR2-EN068"]Manticore of Darkness[/ycard], and his opponent triggering his [ycard="IOC-007"]Strike Ninja[/ycard]'s effect .

    Turn Player states he would like to end Main Phase 1.

    Opponent activates [ycard="EEN-EN048"]Gateway to Dark World[/ycard], and targets [ycard="EEN-EN024"]Goldd, Wu-Lord of Dark World[/ycard].

    Turn Player activates [ycard="TP4-017"]Magic Drain[/ycard].

    Opponent discards [ycard="SRL-EN048"]Giant Trunade[/ycard].

    Goldd is summoned.

    Turn Player activates [ycard="DB2-EN201"]Bottomless Trap Hole[/ycard].

    Opponent no response.

    Turn Player states again that he would like to end Main Phase 1.

    Opponent agrees.

    STOP.

    Now, there are no further plays that can be made under the assumption that you are in Main Phase 1, as BOTH players have a[ycard="SOD-EN055"]Greed[/ycard] to end Main Phase 1.

    At this point, since neither player can play anything until the declaration of which phase they will be entering, ie, [ycard="DR1-EN006"]Helpoemer[/ycard] at end of Battle Phase or return [ycard="IOC-007"]Strike Ninja[/ycard] at End Phase of turn for opponent; [ycard="IOC-013"]Berserk Gorilla[/ycard] attack in Battle Phase or [ycard="DR2-EN068"]Manticore of Darkness[/ycard] for Turn Player at End Phase of turn.

    These are the choices that are affected by Turn Player's decision.

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