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Test Tiger V face down gladiator beasts

Discussion in 'Rules Questions (YGO)' started by Terry the Elder, Jun 17, 2008.

  1. Terry the Elder

    Terry the Elder New Member

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    TextIf you control a "Gladiator Beast" monster, you can Special Summon this card. You can Tribute this card to return 1 "Gladiator Beast" monster you control to the Deck, and then Special Summon 1 "Gladiator Beast" from your Deck. The Special Summoned monster is treated as if it was Special Summoned by the effect of a "Gladiator Beast".Rulings"Test Tiger's" effect targets 1 "Gladiator Beast" monster you control.

    My question

    If the gladiator monster is face down can it be targetted by Test tiger.?

    I assume not as it is not any specifit type of monster simply a face down card. In order for it to be selected as a valid target the face down would first need to be flipped face up.

    I think my understanding is correct, but wanted to make sure as I am building an anti gladiator beast side deck and whether it works or not depends on my understanding.

    thanks in advance for anyones help.:D
  2. 1cup

    1cup New Member

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    test tiger's effect that sends 1 'gladiator beast' monster back to the deck to 'tag in' another one does target one face up monster. a face down 'gladiator beast' monster is inelegible to be sent back as a face down monster does not have a name, effect, ATK, DEF, type, attribute or level.
  3. Maruno

    Maruno Council of Heroes Staff Member

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  4. 1cup

    1cup New Member

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    SLAG

    i saw curtis's post too slow. curses maruno.

    yeah, i was under the impression that you couldn't contact fuse with face down either, until curtis came 'round and burst that bubble.

    a couple judges and i were discussing that and we came to the consensus that with contact fusion, it's a cost. and as the controller of the face down, you know what name it would have when it is flipped. so you could pay the cost of sending it back, because you know it has the proper name.

    the corollary that i was making was about a set no-tribute fusilier. its stats aren't halved until it is face up thusly face down, it is still an eligible cost for deck devastation/eradicator epidemic virus. as the controller, you know what is printed on the card and since you're using it to pay the cost, it'd eligible.

    edit:
    the reason i bring this up, is because of the differences between the two effects.

    contact fusion/ddv/eev, the face down monster is removed from the field for a cost while for test tiger's effect, it is part of the effect.
  5. Maruno

    Maruno Council of Heroes Staff Member

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    Contact Fusion doesn't have a Cost + Effect. It's a Summoning method. And apparently it's just allowed that face-down monsters can be used for Summons.
  6. 1cup

    1cup New Member

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    ok, maruno is technically correct.
    (which in this game, is the best kind of correct)

    in application, the returning of the monsters is similar to a cost, in that to attempt a contact fusion you return the monsters to the deck first, then if the fusion is negated via solemn judgment (or your other favorite summon negator), the monsters sent back are not refunded and brought back to the field.


    but as far as why to allowing contact fusions of face down, i'm still gonna go with the thinking that as the controller, you are allowed to look at your face down monster and check the name it would have when it's flipped. and combined with showing your opponent that face-down when you declare a contact fusion allows you to do it.
  7. Maruno

    Maruno Council of Heroes Staff Member

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    It's the difference in how they work. Summons happen instantly, with no gaps during them in which something else could happen. Costs are the same.

    Targeting a particular card during the Cost, to then do something to it during the Effect, however, leaves a gap between the two events. Anything could happen in there. If the target is face-down, it's technically an unknown in the game (it's "a card", as far as the game knows). Since there's a gap, and since other things can happen in that gap, the game can conceivably move on in that gap, perhaps even to an irreparable state. All the while, the targeted card could even be the wrong one (accidental), meaning the effect couldn't even have been activated in the first place, but it was and it led to development of the game. This is not allowed (no illegal activations).

    In short, face-down cards are "that card", and there is no way for the game to know whether it is a legal target for an effect or not. If it turns out not to be, then it's an illegal activation, and the effect couldn't be activated (although you couldn't find this out until later, when the effect resolves). And since it's impossible to know, the game errs on the side of caution and doesn't let you do anything "on the off-chance" that you are indeed able to do it in the end (the game just sees this as luck, which it doesn't like).

    Remember that players know a lot more about the game than the game itself knows, such as Deck contents and what face-down cards are.

    That's my explanation. A bit awkward, but you can probably see the point somewhere. It's that it's impossible to tell whether an effect has been legally or illegally activated, and the game is not allowed to proceed after an illegal activation, yet it must until the resolution of the effect (at which point you find out whether it really was illegal or not). To cover this, no activating cards "just in case" it happens to be legal.

    The same goes for Metamorphosis, Soul Exchange and a face-down opponent's monster (it could be Level 2, so Metamorphosis would do nothing, which is against the rules - you can't activate a card that will do nothing).

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