DMOC and Relinquished

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Fury

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Here's the ruling I have problems with:
If "Dark Magician of Chaos" is equipped to "Relinquished", and is destroyed, then "Dark Magician of Chaos" is removed from play.
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The problem is DMOC's effect that removes it from play is continuous. While it is equipped to Relinquished it has no effects at all. So what removes it?

In an earlier thread we discussed that Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys wont return if destroyed while equipped to relinquished because at the time of destruction it had no effect.
But Sangan gets its effect because it activates in the grave and at that point the card is already reset to a monster (with its effects).

The effect of DMOC is not a graveyard effect, so why does it work?
 
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Fury said:
Here's the ruling I have problems with:The problem is DMOC's effect that removes it from play is continuous. While it is equipped to Relinquished it has no effects at all. So what removes it?

In an earlier thread we discussed that Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys wont return if destroyed while equipped to relinquished because at the time of destruction it had no effect.
But Sangan gets its effect because it activates in the grave and at that point the card is already reset to a monster (with its effects).

The effect of DMOC is not a graveyard effect, so why does it work?
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Excerpt Quoted from the Judge List...

Judge List said:
"We are going to request the following card errata. Unfortunately, we can't put these up as official errata on the web page until Konami OK's it. Fortunately, we can pass this information along to you with this statement: Consider these to be the way the cards are played. (Official errata or not.)"
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Dark Magician of Chaos

When this card is Normal Summoned or Special Summoned, you can SELECT AND add 1 Spell Card from your Graveyard to your hand. A monster that is destroyed by this monster as a result of battle is removed from play instead of going to the Graveyard. If this face-up card is REMOVED FROM THE FIELD, it is removed from play. (removed "destroyed or")
 
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I dont know what you mean with the bolded part. I hope you want to proove that it's not a graveyard effect but a continuous one.

All monster cards refer to themselves as cards so the first part of what you bolded is irrelevant. If a monster turns into an equip it has no effects at all.
e.g. If Exiled Force is equipped to Relinquished even if it's text says:
By Tributing this face-up card, destroy 1 monster on the field.
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you still cant activate its effect, right?

The "rule effect" thing is very interesting though. But could you name others than the Harpie Ladies? (Their naming rules are really dumb, but that's not the point here.) I mean other effects besides "naming" rules.
 
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Fury said:
I dont know what you mean with the bolded part. I hope you want to proove that it's not a graveyard effect but a continuous one.

All monster cards refer to themselves as cards so the first part of what you bolded is irrelevant. If a monster turns into an equip it has no effects at all.
e.g. If Exiled Force is equipped to Relinquished even if it's text says:you still cant activate its effect, right?

The "rule effect" thing is very interesting though. But could you name others than the Harpie Ladies? (Their naming rules are really dumb, but that's not the point here.) I mean other effects besides "naming" rules.
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As soon as you pick up the face-up Dark Magician of Chaos to send him to the Graveyard, his effect removes him from play. It has the same activation timing as Sangan, although it must be face-up, where as Sangan doesnt care.
 
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Heh? Same activation timing as Sangan? Sangan has a Trigger Effect that activates in the graveyard.
So you're saying DMOC's effect is a trigger, too?
Now I really got confused.:?
 
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Fury said:
Heh? Same activation timing as Sangan? Sangan has a Trigger Effect that activates in the graveyard.
So you're saying DMOC's effect is a trigger, too?
Now I really got confused.:?
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I'm still trying to figure out how you came to the conclusion that that part of his effect is continuous....
 
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Comparing Sangan and DMoC isn't really beneficial. Sangan activates in the Graveyard. DMoC doesn't "activate." It just removes itself from play because that's what the card says to do. As masterwoo0 points out, it doesn't matter if he's a monster, spell, or trap, or whatever - if he leaves the field, he's removed from play.

Same thing with Sangan, it doesn't matter if it's a monster, spell, or trap. If the card goes to the Graveyard, its effect activates.
 
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In Sangan's case that's because when a card is sent to the grave then it resets, so it will always be the Sangan with all its effects when in the grave.

However if DMOC is a trigger then how can it trigger if it has no effects with its an Equip Spell equipped to Relinquished?

Plus the effect of other cards that redirect the movement of cards like: Banisher of the Radiance, Banisher of the Light, Macro Cosmos and Dimensional Fissure all have continuous effects.
 
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Fury said:
Plus the effect of other cards that redirect the movement of cards like: Banisher of the Radiance, Banisher of the Light, Macro Cosmos and Dimensional Fissure all have continuous effects.
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Of course those cards are considered Continuous because they dont require anything to "trigger" their effects. It states in their card text that all cards (or Monsters Only) will be removed from play.

DMoC only removes cards that it destroys in Battle, and will only remove himself when he is removed from the field after a successful summon places him there, or he is flipped face-up on the field from being Set.
 
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Fury, I think you may be looking at this a little too technically. Forget types of effects, forget card types, attributes, all of that. The card Sangan doesn't care how it goes to the Graveyard, only that it does. The card Dark Magician of Chaos doesn't care how it leaves the field when face-up, only that it removes itself from play when it does.
 
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If it is a trigger effect, would we be able to use interdimensional matter transported on it in a chain in order to save it?

New question: Wait, no it would not be possible to do that. It is already off of the field. So is there like a subspace between the field and the graveyard?
 
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Too technically???
I'm trying to figure out how it works. That's the point of this thread.

I dont get masterwoo0's point at all. Instead of answering my questions he asks new ones and even after I reply to them I get no answer. Instead of counter-questions I would like to hear detailed explanations of how it works in your opinion.

If you say that DMOC doesnt has a graveyard trigger like Sangan then we should skip Sangan all together because then they are not related. (By the way I already explained why Sangan still works, but you can re-read the earlier thread here:http://www.cogonline.net/threads.19023)

The other card I mentioned was Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys with also has a trigger effect(or effects). It doesnt get its effect when destroyed while equipped to Relinquished. So if DMOC's is a trigger too, with the same timing it should miss it as well.

EDIT: Yeah, if its a trigger then we should be able to chain to it. Like negate it with Divine Wrath, then DMOC would go to the grave instead. (But I think that's not the case.)
 
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As long as the card, DMoC, that particular piece of cardboard and ink, is leaving the field, it removes itself from play. Doesn't matter if it was a monster, doesn't matter if it's a spell, doesn't matter if it's a trap, doesn't matter what the effect of it was, etc. The cardboard is leaving the field, it's going out of play.
 
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Again, you didnt say if it's a trigger or continuous effect at all. And if you are supporting the "rule effect" thing mentioned by Entropy please say so.

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That it needs to be face-up for its effect to work also could be a hint that it's a continuous effect. Also:
When "Dark Magician of Chaos" is sent to your hand by "Penguin Soldier", it is removed from play instead.
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This "instead" means that it wont hit the hand. This "instead" is used on cards with continuous effects that redirect card movement (I posted others earlier) like:
Degenerate Circuit - going to RFG instead of the hand
Grave Protector - going to deck instead of grave (you can read the word "instead" in its rulings multiple times)
And the other RFG instead of grave cards.

The "rule effect" thing also has some kind of support in the rulings:
While "Skill Drain" is active, the first and second effects of "Dark Magician of Chaos" are negated, but the 3rd effect is not negated.
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So it's an effect that cant be negated. Something like the "This monster cant be Special Summoned." thing. That however still doesnt explain why an Equip Spell that has no effects at all goes to the RFG pile instead of the grave without any effects involved. And I dont mean effects only - the card should be considered blank, with no card text whatsoever while equipped. If a monster had an effect that said: "This monster cant be destroyed by card effects." it still would be destroyed by Relinquished while equipped, wouldnt it?
 
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I do not think that is quite the kind of type answer he wants, but I think know how to answer the question now.

I think we have to consider a sort of subspace in between the graveyard and the field. When it is detroyed it is removed from the field. On its way to the graveyard it is no longer an attachment to relinquished. Its effect is being fufilled on its way to the graveyard. Remember it never touches the graveyard and it has to have left the field for the his effect to even occur. If we look at it like this, we can actually see he is truly of another dimension his effect occurs in a place that does not even exist.

Weird huh?

:edit wouln't if be cool if that reason was used in all of the official rulings websites?
 
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I completely agree that it's weird ;)

In that subspace continuous effects dont work, so then it's not one. But what is it then?

By the way that subspace is called "limbo" IIRC :)
 
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Well, now that we know where the situation is occuring all we have to do is hammer out what IS occuring. I myself believe it is continuous. But I cannot put into words the reason as to why it would be.

Actually I think I do know how to explain it. Going back to what Jathro said a few moments earlier ( thank you for puting it into words ) we can see why it is sent from play. Once the card is in this subspace/limbo is it no longer bound to the limitations that were placed on it by relinquished, it has effects again. So now it is able to remove itself from play. There you go. I have explained it as best as I can imagine doing so. It actually is not necessary to put the whole deal about it being a card,since it would be a monster once it hits this limbo. I guess it is just there to define things.
 
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Ah, so the monster is reset when entering limbo, and since this effect is a condition, it applies right away and redirects the card from the "to the grave" door to the "to the RFG pile" door.

Now I see. Thanks people.
 
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