New crazy question -- proxies?

[Dark Star]

Just when we think we have all our bases covered, someone comes up with something new, out of the blue. I missed it (maybe before I got there? maybe I just missed it??) but rumor is someone who showed up for the first time last week was playing with (I think) proxie cards -- my kid tells me he just had other cards in the sleeves with the card text inserted on a piece of paper, or something like that.... (Keep in mind this is an 11 year old trying to explain it to me...)

Heaven knows we're not official, and at the rate we're going who knows when we will be, but you do go on as you start so we are trying to do things right to begin with. So I tried googling to see what the official line on proxie cards is, and all I came up with is how to make the darned things -- yes, you too can print your own fakes with Yugioh card maker. Well, that wouldn't fly, because we have tracked down that fake cards are officially not legal for tournament play, but this is rather something else -- he isn't using fake cards, he's just using text for cards he doesn't yet own, if I understood right.

Okay, it feels wrong to me. If you can't use OCG cards and you are not supposed to use anything that isn't in English unless you have the translation available (did I get that right?) then using cards in place of other cards you don't really have just doesn't seem legit -- but I'd like someone with experience to back me up or shoot me down in this. So what is the official line?

 

[Sakura Sakamoto]

i don't know the official take on it but proxies are good for trying new decks especially if the deck is expensive like lightsworn or teledad i think there fine out side of tournaments but i don't think they are or should be usable in tournaments. that's my take on it.

 

[Digital Jedi]

For fun and casual dueling, proxies are fine and about the only way you can test if some cards are worth trading for/buying.

But for a tournament, even if it's only quasi-official, there's an expectation that it's supposed to be just a mini version of a sanctioned tournament. I mean, there are some tournies that alter the rules for specific reasons, like coming up with twists on the ban list or altering rules of the game just for variety. But even then, especially if people are paying to participate, a certain level of authoritativeness is supposed to permeate.

 

[Dark Star]

So what about a local rule to the effect that proxies are only allowed for casual "deck testing" purposes... Not for official play, not as something you can run as a matter of course week after week; and only with the agreement of the person you are playing against? Would that make sense?

 

[Digital Jedi]

That's pretty much how it's done everywhere, so yes. Generally in casual dueling, it's not a big deal. I mean, I've played against and with decks that were almost entirely proxies. So it's not unusual. But at official events, it's always a, as they say, no-no.

 

[Dillie-O]

Unless things have changed, ultimately it boils down to whether or not the tournament is sanctioned, meaning the tournament is going to use COSSY to up your stats for national rankings.

If it is a sanctioned tournament, you gotta abide by KDE and no proxies are allowed. No Japanese or Asian-American cards are allowed either. You can use pretty much any other language (Spanish, German, French, etc.) but the general rule of thumb is to have a nice print/scan of the english version of the card as a reference point for those that don't know what the card does.

For unsanctioned events, anything goes. It really is up to the TO running it. They could allow proxies, make it a 4 card limit, no banned cards, whatever. The results/processing isn't going to KDE, so it won't skew the rankings at all.

 

[DarkLogicianOfCaos]

One side note.... recently technology has allowed proxies to become very good. Make sure that your proxies are of varient size, non-color, or are labeled "proxy", lest you find yourself at the wrong end of a copyright infringement suite. Or banned for counterfitting.

....I'm just saying.... be careful out there. Seriously.

 

[cardmaster]

i say a proxie is a no no at all times but as said here UDE said no to all type even in casaul play and i dont know about konmai but i will agrre with these guys that proxie are useable if the other player says or it the event runner does not mind they ues at culb night or something

 

[Digital Jedi]

One side note.... recently technology has allowed proxies to become very good. Make sure that your proxies are of varient size, non-color, or are labeled "proxy", lest you find yourself at the wrong end of a copyright infringement suite. Or banned for counterfitting.

....I'm just saying.... be careful out there. Seriously.

Copyright infringement can only extend as far as distribution. You can make copies of media you own all the live long day if you are the one planning on using it. It's the redistribution of the media where you will run into problems and what you intend to do with that redistribution. You can't be sued for having a really good, or even a flawless copy of a card in your deck. You can only be sued if you try to pass it off as the real thing at the creator's expense.

i say a proxie is a no no at all times but as said here UDE said no to all type even in casaul play and i dont know about konmai but i will agrre with these guys that proxie are useable if the other player says or it the event runner does not mind they ues at culb night or something

No, they never said anything about casual play. They don't have any control or right of control over what you do casually. They're purview only extends as far as events they sanctioned.

 

[Dark Star]

Well, my understanding is the guy had pieces of white paper tucked in on top of other cards with the card text on them -- don't know if it was typed, or hand written or what, but being mistaken for real cards was not an issue in this case.

What we are trying to decide is whether to allow this for our regular Sunday afternoon play which we are hoping to eventually turn into a sanctioned league if we can ever get our act together and jump through the proper hoops to make Konami happy.

Our initial thought was just "No!" -- but after reading some of the earlier comments we are thinking maybe yes, on the understanding that it's announced and agreed upon beforehand with whoever is the opposing player (did that sentence make sense? In other words you have to tell whoever you are playing that you have proxy cards and they have to agree it is okay) and also on the understanding that it's so someone can test out a card or cards in his/her deck, but it's a temporary measure, he/she can't do it for weeks or months on end without actually acquiring the real cards. No just playing with cards you don't have because you want them....

And for tournaments, even unofficial ones, still "No!" Does that make sense for a local rule?

 

[DarkLogicianOfCaos]

Personally, I would say (if it were my shop) proxies can be used in casual play, but in our tournaments, sanctioned or otherwise, no. The reason being: #1, they would need to get the okay from everyone in that tournament, lest they get to round three and play someone who says, er...no. Now he has to change his deck up, which is clearly a no-no. #2, Once that barn door is opened in a tournament (even for a fun, non-sanctioned one) the worms will spill freely from the can. It might be difficult to control the "limits" you place on the proxies (#, Type, etc.).

Besides, after the tournament or before, there will be plenty of opportunity to have a "pick-up" duel with other players, especially if you let them know you are trying out a new deck build, and use the snot out of proxies. I have a friend, just returning to the game and he used nothing but proxies. Afterward, I would rifle through his deck and return next day with a stack of cards to replace his more common proxies. However, I had to laugh at times, when I saw him proxying cards that I didn't even have, but maybe one copy. I said, seriously, dude, you would not have that card in your deck, for real, unless you are looking to pay $350.00 on just one card. Here....this is a fairly comperable substitute card.......

Like you said. The real value of the proxie is to play test to see if it plays well enough to ofset or justify the cost of purchasing that particular card. In fact, you might even be able to help in that regard. You know what they are play testing, if it works well for them, maybe you could broker the deal to get them that card. Just a thought....

Anyway, it is your tournament, so until it gets sanctioned, feel free to allow the proxies. I would just be careful not to let them get too used to it. Remember, it is easier to allow something previously forbidden, then to forbid something previously allowed.