exiledforcefreak
RIP Jacob KT 2/16/06
Ok... so what happens if final attack orders and level limit area type b are both active on the field????
A question my friend asked me I had NO clue as to the answer
- Thread starter exiledforcefreak
- Start date
You would apply the effects in Timestamp order.exiledforcefreak said:
So which ever effect came into play first is applied first, then you apply the second.
So for example, if Level Limit - Area B is face-up and active first, and one player activates Final Attack Orders, you would apply LLAB's effect first, and then FAO.
If it is the reverse, then you apply FAO first and then LLAB.
Hope that helps
True, but i think it's important to note that both effects will actually occur and affect all the face-up monsters on the Field.Dlanaan said:
In the end, the later Timestamp (the most recent effect to resolve) will be the last applied and in a sense take precedence.
StRiKe_NiNjA
Dimension Shift Ninja
Have a question on the time stamp issue.
TimeStamp1: Level Limit - Area B
TimeStamp2: Final Attack Orders
Berserk Gorilla effect is continuous correct?
If Berserk Gorilla is summoned, Level Limit - Area B first switches it to defense mode, then Final Attack Orders switches back to attack, but at the point where Berserk Gorilla was switched to defense, it will be destroyed even when Final Attack Order finalizes switching Berserk Gorilla to attack mode right?
TimeStamp1: Level Limit - Area B
TimeStamp2: Final Attack Orders
Berserk Gorilla effect is continuous correct?
If Berserk Gorilla is summoned, Level Limit - Area B first switches it to defense mode, then Final Attack Orders switches back to attack, but at the point where Berserk Gorilla was switched to defense, it will be destroyed even when Final Attack Order finalizes switching Berserk Gorilla to attack mode right?
masterwoo0
NINJA4LIFE
If Final Attack Orders is last played, meaning on a later turn after Level Limit was activated, then Berserk Gorilla shouldnt go to defense.StRiKe_NiNjA said:
StRiKe_NiNjA
Dimension Shift Ninja
You resolve all effects in a timestamp order.
Timestamp1: Level Limit - Area B
Timestamp2: Final Attack Orders
Level Limit - Area B would apply first, being first in timestamp order, placing monsters in defense mode, then Final Attack Orders would apply placing monsters in attack mode. Or vice-versa if Final Attack Orders was activated first.
Would Berserk Gorilla be destroyed?
Timestamp1: Level Limit - Area B
Timestamp2: Final Attack Orders
Level Limit - Area B would apply first, being first in timestamp order, placing monsters in defense mode, then Final Attack Orders would apply placing monsters in attack mode. Or vice-versa if Final Attack Orders was activated first.
Would Berserk Gorilla be destroyed?
Bigred Blues
New Member
Normally people chain Final Attack Orders to Level Limit Area B, Ignorant of the fact of Time Stamping.
If Final Attack Orders is chained to Level Limit Area B, Final Attack Orders will Resolve First, and then Level Limit will then Resolve switching all monsters to Def.
Now If Level Limit Resolves, then later in the turn Final Attack Orders is activated Final Attack Orders being the last to Resolve will switch all monsters to attack mode.
Now in your Question Player A has Gorilla and a Set Final Attack Order
Player B Activates Level Limit Area B
Player A Chains Final Attack Orders
Final Attack Orders Resolve, then LLAB resolves causing Monkey to Pop.
Now the intresting thing about Berserk Gorilla is that his effect will cause him to Die inbetween Links in a chain. So he were to somehow affected and switched to Def by a Card Effect, Enemy Controller or Zero Gravity before Final Attack Orders Resolved Berserk Gorilla would die.
So in a Situation like You have Gorilla and Final Attack Orders, and you activate Final Attack Orders and your Opponents Chains Enemy Controller, Berserk Gorilla would die before Final Attack Orders resolved.
If Final Attack Orders is chained to Level Limit Area B, Final Attack Orders will Resolve First, and then Level Limit will then Resolve switching all monsters to Def.
Now If Level Limit Resolves, then later in the turn Final Attack Orders is activated Final Attack Orders being the last to Resolve will switch all monsters to attack mode.
Now in your Question Player A has Gorilla and a Set Final Attack Order
Player B Activates Level Limit Area B
Player A Chains Final Attack Orders
Final Attack Orders Resolve, then LLAB resolves causing Monkey to Pop.
Now the intresting thing about Berserk Gorilla is that his effect will cause him to Die inbetween Links in a chain. So he were to somehow affected and switched to Def by a Card Effect, Enemy Controller or Zero Gravity before Final Attack Orders Resolved Berserk Gorilla would die.
So in a Situation like You have Gorilla and Final Attack Orders, and you activate Final Attack Orders and your Opponents Chains Enemy Controller, Berserk Gorilla would die before Final Attack Orders resolved.
masterwoo0
NINJA4LIFE
Clearly I must have missed the part where this was a chain. If Level Limit -Area B is active, then 2 turns later, you activate Final Attack Orders, it would take precedence over all monsters summoned "after" its activation. Any monsters on the field face-up already, are turned to attack.
If Berserk Gorilla is summoned to the field after Final Attack Orders has resolved, then he would stay in attack.
If Final Attack Orders is destroyed, then all monsters face-up on the field (Level 4 and above) are turned to defense, and Berserk Gorilla would be destroyed when he goes to defense position.
If Berserk Gorilla is summoned to the field after Final Attack Orders has resolved, then he would stay in attack.
If Final Attack Orders is destroyed, then all monsters face-up on the field (Level 4 and above) are turned to defense, and Berserk Gorilla would be destroyed when he goes to defense position.
The key here, I believe, is that unlike LLAB, Final Attack Orders states that the position cannot be changed, however, both are still active on the field, even though FAO will make them stay in attack position when everything resolves, because of "Timestamping", won't LLAB's effect still Shift it to defense first before FAO Shifts it back and makes it stay in attack? I think that's what Strike Ninja is trying to convey.
LLAB on the field first, FAO second:
Anything 4-star and over played face-up Shifts to defense position, then back to attack position where it must stay.
Anything in face-down defense will be Shifted to face-up attack after being flipped, where it must stay (unless it has the effect of flipping it back to face-down defense).
FAO on the field first, LLAB second:
Anything 4-star and over played face-up Shifts to defense position, where they're stuck staying. Positions can be manually changed to attack, but will still be Shifted back to defense. (Mostly useful for Crass Clown.)
Anything 4-star and over played in face-down defense will be Shifted to face-up attack after being flipped, but will be Shifted right back to defense. (Crass Clown's effect should still go off here, but I think his effect on the chain will be resolved after damage like a Flip:, or if manually flipped up by another card effect, after that current chain is over.)
Anything 3-star and under played face-up stays in attack position.
Anything 3-star and under played in face-down defense will be Shifted to attack position and stay there, including for purposes of damage calculation.
I hope that helps to explain this situation better anyway.
LLAB on the field first, FAO second:
Anything 4-star and over played face-up Shifts to defense position, then back to attack position where it must stay.
Anything in face-down defense will be Shifted to face-up attack after being flipped, where it must stay (unless it has the effect of flipping it back to face-down defense).
FAO on the field first, LLAB second:
Anything 4-star and over played face-up Shifts to defense position, where they're stuck staying. Positions can be manually changed to attack, but will still be Shifted back to defense. (Mostly useful for Crass Clown.)
Anything 4-star and over played in face-down defense will be Shifted to face-up attack after being flipped, but will be Shifted right back to defense. (Crass Clown's effect should still go off here, but I think his effect on the chain will be resolved after damage like a Flip:, or if manually flipped up by another card effect, after that current chain is over.)
Anything 3-star and under played face-up stays in attack position.
Anything 3-star and under played in face-down defense will be Shifted to attack position and stay there, including for purposes of damage calculation.
I hope that helps to explain this situation better anyway.
masterwoo0
NINJA4LIFE
I guess its a matter of how each card affects each other. With Level Limit, you can still attempt to change the Battle Position to attack, but it will still return to defense if its above 4 stars. With Final Attack Orders, again, you can still attempt to return the monster to defense, but it will return to attack.
I could be wrong, but I dont think timestamping does anything other than tell which card resolved first, and the last card to resolve has priority. I can see your point on thinking that LLAB will attempt to change the Position though, but this ruling from Ronin kind of throws a wrench in that.
"¢ There are no chains with "Level Limit - Area B".
"¢ All Level 4 or higher monsters face-up on the field after "Level Limit - Area B" resolves will be in Defense Position. You can change the Battle Position of a Level 4 or higher monster, but it will immediately be changed back to Defense Position because of "Level Limit - Area B"'s effect.
"¢ If "Level Limit - Area B" is activated while "Final Attack Orders" is active, then the most recently resolved effect takes precedence and monsters Level 4 or higher will be in Defense Position.
"¢ If "Spell Canceller" is Summoned while "Level Limit - Area B" is active, "Level Limit - Area B" is negated but "Spell Canceller" will changed to Defense Position first.
I could be wrong, but I dont think timestamping does anything other than tell which card resolved first, and the last card to resolve has priority. I can see your point on thinking that LLAB will attempt to change the Position though, but this ruling from Ronin kind of throws a wrench in that.
"¢ There are no chains with "Level Limit - Area B".
"¢ All Level 4 or higher monsters face-up on the field after "Level Limit - Area B" resolves will be in Defense Position. You can change the Battle Position of a Level 4 or higher monster, but it will immediately be changed back to Defense Position because of "Level Limit - Area B"'s effect.
"¢ If "Level Limit - Area B" is activated while "Final Attack Orders" is active, then the most recently resolved effect takes precedence and monsters Level 4 or higher will be in Defense Position.
"¢ If "Spell Canceller" is Summoned while "Level Limit - Area B" is active, "Level Limit - Area B" is negated but "Spell Canceller" will changed to Defense Position first.
Yeah, I've noticed that too, it could throw a kink in the cog, so to speak, but it's something to actually ask about.
With LLAB, it doesn't say you can't change battle positions, it just says that all face-up 4-star or higher monsters remain in defense position as long as the card is active. So that's why battle positions can be changed, they just get shifted back.
With FAO, however, it states:
Final Attack Orders
Continuous Trap
As long as this card remains on the field, all face-up monsters on the field are changed to Attack Position and their battle positions cannot be changed.
It specifically states that battle positions cannot be changed. If it had the same wording as LLAB, then I would be SO abusing FAO with Dream Clown, Blade Rabbit, and Stumbling.
With LLAB, it doesn't say you can't change battle positions, it just says that all face-up 4-star or higher monsters remain in defense position as long as the card is active. So that's why battle positions can be changed, they just get shifted back.
With FAO, however, it states:
Final Attack Orders
Continuous Trap
As long as this card remains on the field, all face-up monsters on the field are changed to Attack Position and their battle positions cannot be changed.
It specifically states that battle positions cannot be changed. If it had the same wording as LLAB, then I would be SO abusing FAO with Dream Clown, Blade Rabbit, and Stumbling.
CraniumX said:
The question is: Does FAO imply that battle positions can't be changed manually, or that they can't be changed by anything including the effects of another card?
Ruling #3:
While "Final Attack Orders" is active, you can change the Battle Positions of monsters with "Curse of Fiend" or "Little-Winguard", but the Battle Positions are immediately changed back to Attack Position by "Final Attack Orders".
So it does allow other effects to kick in, but then it changes them back.
Feel free to abuse Dream Clown, Blade Rabbit, and Stumbing.
John Danker
Administrator
They can be changed by card effect even when Final Attack Orders is active....as you said though, in most cases it will then switch back to face up attack position.
StRiKe_NiNjA
Dimension Shift Ninja
novastar said:
This is what my answers were based on.
You still apply effects, in timestamp order of course when effects like Level Limit - Area B vs Final Attack Orders, so this my question.
Timestamp1: Level Limit - Area B
Timestamp2: Final Attack Orders
- Berserk Gorilla is summoned
- Level Limit - Area B switches position to defense mode
- Final Attack Orders then switches it back to attack mode
Wouldn't Berserk Gorilla be destroyed since at a certain point it was in defense mode?
John Danker said:
By card effect, yes, that much was stated in the FAQ, but will Final Attack Orders allow manual position changes? I would assume by the card text on FAO itself, that it wouldn't, but heck, it'd be great to prove me wrong here. I'd already planned on using Stumbling with Dream Clowns and Blade Rabbits, Final Attack Orders allowing manual position changes would be that much sweeter, but I would definitely want something official to print out on that, because I know everyone would try to tell me otherwise, and if I don't have proof going to a tournament, I'd get entirely overruled I'm sure, which would make it pointless to play.
The more I like to wish this game is about skill and ingenuity, the more I get cookie-cut to death and beaten by someone who just relies completely on "lucky draws" and attacking everything in sight.
I personally don't see why not, but according to the rulings you do not.
If both effects are already active and in play, in the order you suggest, Berserk Gorilla would simply be summoned in Attack Position and remain there.
In this particular case because we are dealing with Battle Position changes, similar to DNA Surgery, you would determine which effect is the latest Timestamp and have that effect apply.
I was thinking of the Spell Canceller vs. LLAB scenario, but that is more of a dependancy case instead of a straight Timestamp resolution. I apologize for the confusion.
John Danker
Administrator
CraniumX said:
You're assumption is correct, manual position changes would not be allowed.
novastar said:
Hmmm? Where is the ruling that says a Berserk Gorilla summoned on the field while a level limit area B is on the field and final attack orders is on the field with a second timestamp? The only ruling I could find that related was Berserk gorilla + stumbling + Final Attack Orders = Destroy Berserk gorilla, which seems contradictory to the very similar situation of BG + LLAB + FAO.
John Danker
Administrator
novastar said:
What leads you to believe this? I'm looking at the following ruling for Final Attack Orders which states...
If "Level Limit - Area B" is activated while "Final Attack Orders" is active, then the most recently resolved effect takes precedence and monsters Level 4 or higher will be in Defense Position.
The word "Precedence" is a bit misleading. In my mind it means it is the only active effect. The way you're describing it the meaning of "Precedence" would be that it is the last effect to take place, not the ONLY active effect.
I've posted a question to the judge's list on the subject. It's an easily misunderstood topic and I feel it would be a good idea to make it public and documented knowledge.