Beast of the pharaoh

T

Terry the Elder

New Member
This states

<SPAN>[If this card is sent to the Graveyard for a Synchro Summon, you can Special Summon 1 Level 4 or lower Zombie-Type monster from your Graveyard.]

I always thought that optional effects missed their timing if something else happened after.

Situation

I have card of safe return, one tuner (Krebons), sangan, and beast of the pharaoh face up on the field, and zombie master in the graveyard. I activate tuners effect and send my monsters to the graveyard for stardust.

Will I
1) Get to summon zombie master from graveyard, assuming this was my target and
2) draw a card for card of safe return, and
3) summon stardust

or will all of my optional effects miss ther timing.

Thanks in advance
 
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A Synchro Summon happens all at once, like a Tribute Summon. Clearly the effect of "Beast of the Pharaoh" is supposed to work, otherwise it wouldn't be made.

I announce I'm going to perform a Synchro Summon. I Tribute those monsters, and Synchro Summon "Stardust Dragon". Then the effects of my Sangan and Beast of the Pharaoh activate. Sangan is mandatory, so it goes as Chain Link 1.

Resolving this Chain, I Summon my Zombie Master, and then search for a monster to put in my hand. The last thing to happen was NOT the Summon of a monster from my Graveyard, so Card of Safe Return does NOT activate.

Result: Stardust Dragon, Zombie Master, a weak Monster Card in hand (from Sangan).
 
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Thanks for that,

Just to be clear.

The synchro summo is deemed to happen as part of/simultaneous to the effect of the tuner, unlike a normal tribute summon that happens after the tribute. That would explain why the beast works in a synchro summon, but jinzo returner woould not work in a normal tribute summon.

Think I got it now.:D
 
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I don't think I do, now. What do you mean by that big paragraph?

Why would Jinzo - Returner not work if Tributed for a Tribute Summon? Is there some unexplained difference between Tribute Summon and Synchro Summon (by which one allows optional trigger effects coming to light during the Summon to activate afterwards, but the other one doesn't)?
 
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Actually, under normal circumstances, you would miss the timing for that effect. "Beast of the Pharaoh" and "Sinister Sprocket" are exceptions to this since their effects would be completely useless otherwise.

For both Tribute and Synchro Summons, you send the monsters to the Graveyard, and then you Special Summon. Remember that when performing such a Summon, there is a brief window in which you can respond with "Horn of Heaven" or "Solemn Judgment". Before that window, you send the monsters to the Graveyard. After that window, the Summon is complete.
 
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Perhaps a better way to look at it is this, when/what is the trigger?

For Jinzo Summoner, the trigger is: being sent to the Graveyard. Thus the last thing that needs to happen is it being sent to the Graveyard, not the summoning of a Monster.

For Beast of the Pharoah, the Trigger is: being sent to the graveyard for a synchro summon. Thus, the last thing that needs to happen is a synchro summon. If the Synchro Summon is negated, no Zombie for you.
 
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So a Tribute Summon has two parts to it? I always figured that since it didn't use the Chain both the Tributes and the Summon happened at the same time.

I'll have to remember this.

But this only applies to optional triggers, right? A mandatory effect like Zolga or Sangan would wait to start a Chain (and would indeed activate), yes?
 
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It is not so much that they occur in two parts per se. Its more like substeps. It is just that you have the attempt to summon (this includes tributing any monsters, or simply decalairing that you are summoning a monster and placing it on the field) and actually successfully summoning a monster. The first can be negated, in which case, as you well know, any Tributes are lost. If there is a manditory effect that occurs when a monster is sent to the graveyard, it will still activate, but not the optional effects, because the last thing to "happen" was the negating of the summon (or the summon itself), not the hitting of the graveyard.

Now in the case of the Beast, we really only have two ways to explain why his optional effect goes off so late. One, is the one I stated, that it's trigger is the successful summon. The other is that it is a manditory effect, with an optional trigger. And right now the only one of those we have in the game is Light and Darkness Dragon.

***HOLD THE PHONE!!!!! I just had a thought....and yes, it hurt!

If the Synchro Summons are like the Fusion Summons (or contact for that matter) we have ourselves an EASIER understanding of what is going on!! As they are sent to the graveyard as part of the same resolution of an effect, which happens at the same time! For instance: You activate Polymerization. Nothing hapepens until resolution. Then, at the same time, the material monsters go to the graveyard and the fusion monster appears....no problem (same with contact fusions)! If that is the case then it would solve all of the timing issues with optional triggers. However, it would also mean that you could gain the optional trigger effects from poly/contact/Synchro of other optional effect monsters. And I don't see the game letting us do that. Therefore, I suggest asking Curtis if I Synchro Summon using Peten the Dark Clown, may I have another?
 
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I'd say that since the line goes "If this card is sent to the Graveyard for a Synchro Summon", it implies the Synchro Summon must happen and then the effect will trigger. That's probably the most convenient way to read it. It explains how the card works, and why it's different.

A Synchro Summon is a type of Special Summon. There's no proper connection between it and Fusion Summon (other than the resulting monster lives in the Extra Deck). It's comparable to a Nomi Special Summon or a Tribute Summon. Polymerization is a card effect - there's no way to "naturally" Fusion Summon monsters; there's always something that forces it to happen.

(Fusion Gate needs rewording to say what it actually does; everyone knows it's a replacement for Polymerization, but on the off chance you don't know what Polymerization does then you're stuck.)

A lot of good work could be done with the word "Then" (at the beginning of new sentences, to indicate anything before the "Then" is not the last thing to happen). Or you could invent proper terminology to mean the same thing instead, if you didn't mind dropping the sentency style.
 
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I'm focusing more on the "Their text allows them to activate their effects when the trigger event occurs." part. I read it more like:

•"Beast of the Pharaoh"'s text allow you to activate his effect when he is sent to the Graveyard, despite the rulings for missing the timing.
•"Curse of Fiend"'s text allows it to activate it during the Standby Phase, despite the ruling that Normal Spell Cards can only be activated during the Main Phase.
•"Big Shield G(u)ardna"'s text allow you to activate his effect while face-down, despite the ruling that face-down cards have no effect.
•"Serpentine Princess"'s text allows you to activate her effect, despite the ruling that cards have no effect while in the deck. (See "Yubel - Terror Incarnate".)

The last one is probably the closest to my point of view.


Also, (in the OCG at least), when "Zolga" is Tributed for a Tribute Summon, his effect must come before the Tribute Summoned monster's effect (like how "Sangan"'s effect must come first). This is because his Trigger is being sent to the Graveyard, not when the Tribute Summon has completed. Since you don't get "Zolga"'s effect when the Tribute Summon is negated, I'd say that the effects are similar.


While we're talking about "Sangan", he doesn't use that window I talked about earlier (despite how "Solemn Judgment" can be used that window). This is because only Counter Traps and cards which negate Summons can be activated during that window, and his effect does neither. His effect is pushed back to the first time when it can activate, which is after the Summon has been completed.
 
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