Here's a strange one.

P

PoDC

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I looked through the official UDE rulings and still cannot find the answer to this so I thought I'd post it and see what ppl might know.

Can Dark Necrofear and Archfiend of Gilfer use their effect against Horus level 6 or 8.

As I said I read the rulings for all four monsters (Nothing was listed for DN and AoG) but there is nothing that specifically says that Horus can stop these two even though Lvl 8 can negate equip spells. I'm assuming that these two are useless against Horus...but what do you think?
 
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Horus can negate the activation of and destroy equip spells, but DN and AoG are monsters that are treated as equip spells when their effects properly resolve. So, no, because once an equip spell is properly equipped to Horus lv. 8, he can't stop it. However, the effects of equip spells do nothing when they are equipped to Horus lv. 6. So:

Lv. 6 cannot stop this effect.
Lv. 6 will not be affected.
Lv. 8 cannot stop this effect.
Lv. 8 will be affected.
 
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PoDC said:
I looked through the official UDE rulings and still cannot find the answer to this so I thought I'd post it and see what ppl might know.

Can Dark Necrofear and Archfiend of Gilfer use their effect against Horus level 6 or 8.

As I said I read the rulings for all four monsters (Nothing was listed for DN and AoG) but there is nothing that specifically says that Horus can stop these two even though Lvl 8 can negate equip spells. I'm assuming that these two are useless against Horus...but what do you think?
Click to expand...

There's no info because its not necessary.  Horus LV6 is unaffected by Spell Cards period, and Horus LV8 can negate and destroy a Spell Card from activating.

Both Dark Necrofear and Archfiend of Gilfer become Spell Cards when they are equipped to monsters by their effect.

Horus LV8's effect is Spell Speed 2, and could chain to the effect of Archfiend of Gilfer when he becomes a Equip Spell Card, and destroy it.
 
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Horus LV8 has the ability to negate the activate of Spell Cards. "Dark Necrofear" and "Archfiend of Gilfer" or Monster Effects that bring them to the field as Equip Spell Cards. By the time they hit the field, you are already resolving the effect and Horus LV8 can't do a thing about it.

FurryJenny had it right in her description.

- A
 
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Well thanks for clearing that up densetsu_x.

You both agree that Horus lvl6 is not going to be effected, but would the card still be equiped to it thus taking up a spot in S/T zones? I know it can't be effected by spells but it doesn't say that it negates and destroys so....




Have you read the rulings on Horus lvl 8? According to the ruling Normal and Quickplay spells are not listed as things he can negate. If this is true then there have been a lot of duelists mis-using his effect.
 
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densetsu_x said:
Horus LV8 has the ability to negate the activate of Spell Cards.  "Dark Necrofear" and "Archfiend of Gilfer" or Monster Effects that bring them to the field as Equip Spell Cards.  By the time they hit the field, you are already resolving the effect and Horus LV8 can't do a thing about it.

FurryJenny had it right in her description.

- A
Click to expand...

This is the card text for Dark Necrofear:

This card cannot be Normal Summoned or Set. This card can only be Special Summoned by removing 3 Fiend-Type monsters in your Graveyard from play. When this card is destroyed as a result of battle or by your opponent's card effect, it is treated as an Equip Spell Card at the end of the turn. Equip 1 of your opponent's monsters with this card. As long as it is equipped with this card, you control the equipped monster.

As a case for discussion, I would reason that it is not resolving at this point from "Monster to Spell Card" since it would appear to already be one, and could  be negated by Horus LV8.
 
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PoDC said:
Well thanks for clearing that up densetsu_x.

You both agree that Horus lvl6 is not going to be effected, but would the card still be equiped to it thus taking up a spot in S/T zones? I know it can't be effected by spells but it doesn't say that it negates and destroys so....
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Yes it still takes up one of the zones.

Have you read the rulings on Horus lvl 8? According to the ruling Normal and Quickplay spells are not listed as things he can negate. If this is true then there have been a lot of duelists mis-using his effect.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what ruling you are reading but even the FAQ mentions it can negate every kind of Spell Card. Horus LV8 cannot negate Continuous Spell or Field Spell cards that are already active and on the field prior to his summoning.

masterwoo0 said:
This is the card text for Dark Necrofear:

This card cannot be Normal Summoned or Set. This card can only be Special Summoned by removing 3 Fiend-Type monsters in your Graveyard from play. When this card is destroyed as a result of battle or by your opponent's card effect, it is treated as an Equip Spell Card at the end of the turn. Equip 1 of your opponent's monsters with this card. As long as it is equipped with this card, you control the equipped monster.

As a case for discussion, I would reason that it is not resolving at this point from "Monster to Spell Card" since it would appear to already be one, and could be negated by Horus LV8.
Click to expand...

Treated as yes, but it is not a Spell Card that is being activated. It is Necrofear's own effect (as a monster) that changes it to a spell card. But by the time it is considered a spell card, the effect had to have resolved to make it like that.

- A
 
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See Masterwoo, this is why there should be information about it. This is a complex question that leds to debate as to whose effect activates when.

Thanks again densetsu_X

Here's the ruling word for word from the official UDE site.

Note that "Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV8" has the word "except" in its Summoning conditions, which means that even if Special Summoned properly, you cannot revive it with "Monster Reborn" afterwards if it is destroyed.

The "you" in "on your side of the field" is the current controller's field, so as long as "Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV 8" is face-up, it is always "face-up on your side of the field".

The ability of "Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV8" to negate Spell Cards is a multi-trigger effect that must be chained to the activation of the Spell Card. You can activate this effect multiple times in the same chain to negate the activation and effect of several Spell Cards that are activated in the same chain.

You can chain the effect of "Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV8" to the activation of a Continuous Spell Card, Field Spell Card, or Equip Spell Card and negate it. However, if the Continuous, Field, or Equip Spell Card is already active, you cannot later decide to try and negate its effect with "Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV8". You can only negate it when it is originally activated.

You can activate the effect of "Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV8" during the Damage Step.


That's what makes me wonder.
 
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As you pointed out, Horus LV8 negates the Activation of Spell Cards.

In the case of "Archfiend of Gilfer" or "Dark Necrofear", their effect activates in the Graveyard while they are still monsters. "Divine Wrath" is the only thing you can do to negate those activations. By the time you consider them "Spell Cards", their effect had resolved (or is still resolving).

Since "Divine Wrath" negates the Activation and Resolution of Monster Effects, that alone should tell you that Horus LV8 would have no effect on them.

- A
 
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The explanation is not a very good "nail in the coffin".  To me, the term "Treated as" is just a relative term because Dark Necrofear will never truly be a "Spell Card".  

A Spell Card states that it is a Spell Card in the Card Type.  Dark Necrofear states that it is a Monster Card in its Card Type, that can mimic the effect of a Spell Card when destroyed, by its card text.

You cannot treat Dark Necrofear as "Dark Necrofear" when it is destroyed because that would mean that it is stll a monster, and it is not, having changed by its own effect to a Spell Card. Sinces its effect "activates" in the Graveyard, that would be the point of using Divine Wrath so that it never becomes a Spell Card.

A little more clarity on this "Treated as" statement would be helpful since this is going to go way beyond this one question.

"Blast with Chain vs Horus LV8"

"Blast with Chain vs Tyrant Dragon"
 
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Thanks again guys, I'm glad that this question is bringing up some interesting answers.


Anyway, like I said I was wondering about Horus's negation of all spell cards because in the offical ruling it says he can negate the activation of Continuous/Equip and Field. It makes no mention of the others.
 
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masterwoo0 said:
The explanation is not a very good "nail in the coffin". To me, the term "Treated as" is just a relative term because Dark Necrofear will never truly be a "Spell Card".

A Spell Card states that it is a Spell Card in the Card Type. Dark Necrofear states that it is a Monster Card in its Card Type, that can mimic the effect of a Spell Card when destroyed, by its card text.

You cannot treat Dark Necrofear as "Dark Necrofear" when it is destroyed because that would mean that it is stll a monster, and it is not, having changed by its own effect to a Spell Card. Sinces its effect "activates" in the Graveyard, that would be the point of using Divine Wrath so that it never becomes a Spell Card.

A little more clarity on this "Treated as" statement would be helpful since this is going to go way beyond this one question.

"Blast with Chain vs Horus LV8"

"Blast with Chain vs Tyrant Dragon"
Click to expand...

1) "Dark Necrofear"'s effect is a Trigger effect. So when it is destroyed it is still "Dark Necrofear" (after all, what if she was destroyed by your own effect?) Only if the conditions written on the card are met, then her effect activates which will bring her back to the field as an Equip Spell Card. But by that point, Horus LV8 can't do anything to negate that effect.

2) With "Blast with Chain", you didn't say which effect you were referring to. So let's look at both.
a) When "Blast with Chain" is initially activated, it is a trap card still so Horus LV8 can't do anything about it. It's during the Resolution that it becomes treated as an Equip Card. Since you pick the target of "Blast with Chain" during the activation (when it still is considered a trap card), if you chose "Tyrant Dragon", his effect would kick in and destroy "Blast with Chain" before it could resolve.
b) In regards to the second effect, since that activates in the Graveyard (where it is a Trap Card again), it can Target/Destroy Horus LV8, but if it Targets "Tyrant Dragon", the effect would be negated.

Remember, you can chain "Seven Tools of the Bandit" to negate the activation of "Blast with Chain" in which case it's never viewed as an Equip Spell.

- A
 
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Well... I must say that this has been a rather intelligent debate. While I repectfully disagree, I can certainly see your side of the issue and will graciously accept the fact that I may be (for now :D) incorrect.
 
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So Densetsu_X your saying that regardless of what the official site clearly says in their ruling Horus Lvl 8 can negate any and all true spell cards? Correct?


I just want to be perfectly clear on this, there are just too many ppl using this card for unclear answers here.


I have to agree with Masterwoo0 though this has been a fun little debate. Thanks.
 
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I'm not saying anything in spite of the rulings.

Look at the 2 pieces of text, 1 on the card, and that 1 ruling again:

Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV8
Effect Monster (Dragon / FIRE / 8 Stars / ATK 3000 / DEF 1800)

This card cannot be Normal Summoned or Set. This card cannot be Special Summmoned except by the effect of "Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV6". As long as this card remains face-up on your side of the field, you can negate the activation and effect of any Spell Cards and destroy them.

The text on the card allows Horus LV8 to negate the activation of any spell card. Field, Continuous, Quickplay, Normal, and Equip.

Now, to shed a little light on ruling you brought up:

"¢ You can chain the effect of "Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV8" to the activation of a Continuous Spell Card, Field Spell Card, or Equip Spell Card and negate it. However, if the Continuous, Field, or Equip Spell Card is already active, you cannot later decide to try and negate its effect with "Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV8". You can only negate it when it is originally activated.

This ruling is making a distinction between activating a NEW Continuous/Field/Equip Spell Card vs. One that was already activated and currently active on the field when Horus LV8 is Special Summoned to the field. What they are saying is that Horus LV8 CAN negating the activation of any of those kinds of spells. However, since those types of Spell Cards have "Continuous" effects, Horus LV8 can NOT negate a Continuous/Field/Equip Spell if it was already active prior.

Normal and Quickplay Spell Cards aren't mentioned since they are only on the field for Activation/Resolution (except for Spell Cards like, "Swords of Revealing Light" and "Different Dimension Capsule". Even though they are Normal Spell cards, their effect keeps them on the field for more than the current turn. However, they would fall under the same rules as Continuous Spell cards since they could already be Active prior to Horus LV8 hitting the field).

Hope that helps clear it up.

- A
 
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