Legendary Jujitsu Master & Final Attack Orders

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Legendary Jujitsu Master would be turned to attack position before damage calculation. My ruling would be that Legendary Jujitsu Master's effect would not activate.

The poorly worded text of Legendary Jujitsu Master is causing some trouble in a number of areas. The word "Battle" needs to either be changed or defined. We don't know when "Battle" is defined as beginning, we only know when the damage step and damage calculation begins.

Has anyone found a definition of "Battle" yet?
 
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I'm going to give two definitions of 'Battle' here...lol.

MY 1st definition of Battle would be that if you get far enough into the Damage Step to flip a face-down monster face-up (sub step 2), then you have successfully 'battled' with a monster, no matter what happened after that point.

So, going by that information, I would have to disagree with your ruling, John. If THIS definition is true, then the 'flag' that defines 'battle' was placed on both monsters when "Legendary Jujitsu Master" was flipped face-up, before "Final Attack Orders" kicked in and changed it to attack position, thereby satisfying his 'defense position' requirement.

My 2nd definition of Battle would be that if you get into Damage Calculation, then you've successfully 'battled' with a monster.

So, going by that information, I would have to agree with your ruling, John. If THIS definition is true, then the 'flag' that defines 'battle' wasn't placed on both monsters until AFTER "Final Attack Orders" had switched "Legendary Jujitsu Master" to attack position, thereby nullifying his 'defense position' requirement.


But that's just me...lol.
 
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I would define battle as entering the Damage Step, not necessarily flipping the monster face up. Why? Because the beginning of the Damage Step is the point of no return, when replays can no longer occur. So, without any official ruling to back me up, I am boldly going to disagree with Mr. Danker.

-pssvr
 
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One could also argue that the declaration of attack is entering into "battle" <shrug> As I said, the term needs to be defined if they're going to use it in rulings. I'd much prefer a statement such as...."If this monster enters into the damage step....."

It could very well be as well that "Battle" may be before the damage step period since Damage Step comes after the Battle Step (as referenced by Kevin's Damage Step Chart)
 
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"A Monster that completes damage calculation with this Defense Position monster is returned to the top of the owner's Deck at the end of the Damage Step." Would be ideal. But that may not be what the card is meant to cover. Battle is definitely too broad a term.
 
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The declaration of Battle does not necessarily mean two monsters "Battled".

Once you declare an attack, it sets up a response window. Sakuretsu Armor, Compulsory Evacuation Device, Enemy Controller, Book of Moon, Magic Cylinder, Gravity Bind, etc..., can all be activated in that window to prevent the actual Battle from progressing to Damage.

To me, Battle is the point where the response window has closed for these type of effect activations, and, as Pssvr stated, the beginning point of the Damage Step.

Of course, there are monster effects that prevent Damage Calculation, but I have yet to see one that states that you skip the Damage Step because of it. So, Battle can still occur in the absence of Damage Calculation, but no Battle can occur if the response window has been utilized by a successful "Battle Halter".
 
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But that still leaves in question monsters such as Drillroid and Sasuke Samurai. I'd lean a little closer to Battle actually needing to include Damage Calculation in order to be "Battle". Of course we have no way of knowing what Konami wants the effect to include and not include so it is all just speculation. To me Battle is monsters actually hitting each other. Any effects that kick in before the calculation determines the outcome means battle was not successfully completed.
 
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"battle" is damage calculation. You enter the damage step once the monster is face up and begin damage calculation after flipping all monsters. This would mean that, in your situation, Legendary Jujitsu Master is in attack position before it "battles" and it's effect would not trigger.

Do not quote me, I am not an official source of rulings.
 
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pssvr said:
Is that your opinion, or do you have a ruling?
-pssvr
Click to expand...

At this point it's all opinion as "Battle" hasn't been defined yet....however, Gary Haynes and myself happen to agree...but agreement without confirmation and a quarter will get us a gumball.
 
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John Danker said:
At this point it's all opinion as "Battle" hasn't been defined yet....however, Gary Haynes and myself happen to agree...but agreement without confirmation and a quarter will get us a gumball.
Click to expand...
You should do stand up.
-pssvr
 
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exiledforcefreak said:
I was taught, though I do not remember where from, that "battle" reffers to damage calculation. I could give several examples but sorta busy - within the hour.
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Battle cannot be simply explained by saying Damage Calculation since that is only a portion of the Damage Step. A monster can resolve an effect without having been destroyed by Damage Calculation, such as Sangan. He can be destroyed while face-down on the field by Sasuke Samurai, no Damage Calculation.

Sasuke Samurai engaged Sangan in Battle. The only difference is that Sangan's destruction is not determined by who has the highest attack vs defense, but by the fact that he was face-down, Sasuke Samurai will destroy him by effect AFTER engaging him in Battle.

The Damage Step is entered, without performing Damage Calculation as the monster is destroyed by effect.

The term "Battle" should be used whenever simulated "contact" is made between two or more monsters for the purpose of one or multiple monster(s) destruction.

As we all know, a monster can be destroyed by another monster without Battle occuring, such as with tributing Exiled Force or tributing a monster for Zaborg the Thunder Monarch, or flipping face-up Man-Eater Bug, Cyber Jar, Old Vindictive Magician, or Night Assailant.

They can destroy a monster without Battle occuring, or "contact".
 
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