Mobius and timing and stumbling

[Terry the Elder]

I apologise in advance if this question seems to have already been answered but I am trying to get my head around the mechanic as opposed to the actual ruling.

Considerations

1) Spell speed 1 is the slowest speed and cannot be chained, page 39 of the rule book, except in exceptional circumstances.
2) Most monster effects are spell speed 1 with some notable exceptions, Herk, Strike ninja, LADD to name a few. Page 39 of the rule book.
3) Turn player always has priority to activate an ignition effect or play a card, page 41 of the rule book.
4) Optional effects can miss the timing, unless they are the last event to happen. Lots of ruling on this, see peten for example, when used as discard fodder.
5) Stumbling (assuming played last turn) uses the chain and always has priority(and therefore chain link 1), because it is already active on the field.
6) Mobius's effect is a spell speed 1 and is optional.
7) SEGOC rules states that if several spell speed 1 effects are activated simultaneously they will go on a chain starting with the turn players effects, page 43 of the rule book.
8) The rulings state that stumbling goes on the chain before optional effects and mentions mobius as an example. It does not say that mobius gets its effects, just that stummbling gets there first. Equally it does not state that mobius misses its timing.

Situation

Player B has stumbling active.
Player A tributes for mobius and claims priority
Player B says wait my stumbling has priority, and your monster just got turned to defence.
So play A says, o.k I will chain my monsters spell speed 1 effect to your spell speed one effect.

Problem
Now I have read lots of questions and anwers on various forumns and it is clear that most people are of the opinion that mobius gets its effect.

I cannot see how it can get its effect. I may be wrong (and the general view on the forumns is that I am), but it seems to me that mobius has missed its timing.

I accept that a mandatory effect would go on the chain, as it is mandatory, (zaborg for example) and this would be an fine example of two spell speed 1 effects being segoced.

But the last event to happen was not mobius being summoned, but it being changed to defence under the priority effect of stumbling.

Also, according to the rule book, the turn player should have started the chain with his effect, but he could not as stumbling got there first, page 43.

I get that if Player A was allowed to claim priority and start the chain, then it would work, similar to LLAB.

My final issue with the rulings is the everybody seems to accept that mobius is changed to defence. I have never yet seen anyone summon mobius with stumbling active and leave it in attack position.

If I accept that stumbling is chain link 1 and mobius is chain link 2 then resolving backwards, would be that mobius blows up stumbling, stumbling trys to resolve but cannot(as it is no longer on the field), so mobius would stay in face up attack position.

So how can (the turn player) player A above put his spell speed 1 effect on the chain(in second place when the rule book says he needs to be chainlink 1 for segocs), blow up stumbling and end up in face up defence position?

All help on this mechanic much appreciated.

 

[Digital Jedi]

I touch on this a little in my Understanding Trigger Effects article. A lot of your confusion stems from a lot of misapplication of what "Missing the Timing" means. I find the term is used incorrectly in most situations, even if they explain the outcome properly.

Optional Triggers miss their timing during activation, not during resolution. Ask yourself, would we even be bothering putting these effects in a SEGOC if they didn't all activate at the same time?

So in your example, Mobius and Stumbling are activated at the same time. We put them in the SEGOC, because that's our rule of thumb to determine what order they will resolve in:

1. Turn Player's Mandatory Effects (in order of his/her choosing)
2. Opponent's Mandatory Effects (in order of his/her choosing)
3. Turn Player's Optional Effects (in order of his/her choosing)
4. Opponent's Optional Effects (in order of his/her choosing)

So think about it. If Optional Effects would miss their timing by being placed on the chain last, why would we even bother with this chart to begin with? They'd all miss the timing if that were the case. Mobius already activated. The last thing to happen was a summon. Stumbling didn't activate before it or after it, it activated at the same time. So we follow the SEGOC rules to decide where it will resolve.

That's where I think most folks get confused on the matter. Timing has to do with activation, not where you end up placing it on the chain due to SEGOC rules. What an Optional Trigger Effect misses when it "misses the timing" is it's chance to activate. But if we're placing it in a SEGOC, then that means it successfully activated already. If it didn't activate, then it's not going on the chain to begin with. We wouldn't even need to bother with the SEGOC rules.

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1
As to the second part of your question, about why Mobius gets turned to defense even though Stumbling is gone, this is an example of another point that I don't think is often well explained, if explained at all.

Remember what I said about the two effects already activating? The two effects are already on the chain awaiting resolution. What happens to the cards that generated those effects after they have already successfully activated is, more often then not, a moot point.

The problem here, it seems, is that your presuming that Stumbling is a Continuous Effect, dependent on the card being on the field in order to do anything. It's not. Yes, it's a Continuous Spell Card. But Continuous Spell Cards don't always have Continuous Effects.

Stumbling is a Mandatory Trigger Effect, generated from a Continuous Spell Card. But the effect is not "always on" like a Continuous Effect, it's being added to a chain. You put an effect on the chain, and unless you negate that effect somehow, it's going to resolve one way or another. It's not the same as Level Limit - Area B, because that effect is Continuous. It's always on. It has nothing to do with the chain or timing and would "become active" even in between links of a chain.

I think that's where a lot of the confusion comes in. The :continuous: icon means the card stays face-up and active in your Spell/Trap Zone. But it has no bearing on what kind of effect that card is going to generate. It could be anything from a Continuous Effect (Level Limit - Area B) to a Spell Speed 2 Effect (Ultimate Offering) and in Stumbling's case, a Mandatory Trigger Effect.

 

[cardmaster]

this what i found on mobius vs Level limt area B

If "Level Limit - Area B" is active and "Mobius the Frost Monarch" is successfully Tribute Summoned, "Level Limit - Area B" is a Continuous Spell Card so its effect is applied and the battle position of "Mobius the Frost Monarch" is changed to Defense Position. Then you can activate the effect of "Mobius the Frost Monarch".

 

[Digital Jedi]

this what i found on mobius vs Level limt area B

If "Level Limit - Area B" is active and "Mobius the Frost Monarch" is successfully Tribute Summoned, "Level Limit - Area B" is a Continuous Spell Card so its effect is applied and the battle position of "Mobius the Frost Monarch" is changed to Defense Position. Then you can activate the effect of "Mobius the Frost Monarch".

Yes, because Level Limit actually generates a Continuous Effect. As I mentioned, Stumbling does not, it generates a Trigger Effect in response to a summon. Level Limit isn't responding to anything, it's just on. Stumbling is reacting to something. It's reacting to Mobius summon at the same time Mobius is reacting to it.

Level Limit is not an event that can interfere with Mobius timing, because Continuous Effects apply in between chain links and events in the game. Mobius still get's his effect, because his switch is just the application of an "always on" effect, and then he activates.