Quick Questions

[mikoal]

1)when demise uses its effect and you have a normal face up monster and a set blast with chain, what will happen? im assuming BwC will not go off, because the equipped monster would be destroyed as well

2)when a face up dimensional fissure is on the field and the opponent tries to activate raigeki break, it will not work is that correct?

3)battle questions

Player A has a set malfunction and a mosnter atking (declaring atk)
Player B responds with raigeki break to destroy monster (discarding a card from hand as cost)
Player A chains malfuction and paying 500 lp

can player B still activate raigeki break and kill the monster when its "attacking" (after declaration)



Also i read some postings in regards to the Ancient Gear Engineer, and that mirror force will not work on it because the declaration of atk is the same as atking...


but then i also read that u can delcare atk, and neither player responds, and then activate enemy controller on the non atking player's monster and the non atking player cannot activate sakurtsu or mirror force....

so is there a difference between delcaration of atk and atking? and what about the above 2 scenarios what would happen?



thanks!

 

[Maruno]

1)when demise uses its effect and you have a normal face up monster and a set blast with chain, what will happen? im assuming BwC will not go off, because the equipped monster would be destroyed as well

If Blast with Chain is Set, that means it is face-down and is not equipped to a monster. So nothing would happen when it is destroyed.

If Blast with Chain is face-up on the field, and is destroyed by Demise, King of Armageddon's effect, after that effect has resolved Blast with Chain's "destroy 1 card on the field" effect begins a new Chain. At this point, there are no other cards on the field, so you must select and destroy Demise, King of Armageddon.

2)when a face up dimensional fissure is on the field and the opponent tries to activate raigeki break, it will not work is that correct?

It will work. The cost for Raigeki Break is to discard 1 card from your hand. It doesn't specifically say "to the Graveyard" (if it did, you wouldn't be able to discard a Monster Card to activate Raigeki Break). Destroying 1 card on the field means just that. If you happen to destroy a Monster Card, it will be removed from play because of Dimensional Fissure's effect. If you destroy a Spell or Trap Card, it will be sent to the Graveyard.

3)battle questions

Player A has a set malfunction and a mosnter atking (declaring atk)
Player B responds with raigeki break to destroy monster (discarding a card from hand as cost)
Player A chains malfuction and paying 500 lp

can player B still activate raigeki break and kill the monster when its "attacking" (after declaration)

Yes. Malfunction will negate the activation of Raigeki Break and return it to its original position (Set). Player B can then once again activate Raigeki Break to destroy the attacking monster.

Also i read some postings in regards to the Ancient Gear Engineer, and that mirror force will not work on it because the declaration of atk is the same as atking...


but then i also read that u can delcare atk, and neither player responds, and then activate enemy controller on the non atking player's monster and the non atking player cannot activate sakuretsu armor or mirror force....

so is there a difference between delcaration of atk and atking? and what about the above 2 scenarios what would happen?

Ancient Gear Engineer simply prevents any Trap Cards from being activated, from the time you say, "I attack your <monster> with Ancient Gear Engineer" until the end of that battle. "Declaration of attack" is the very first thing that happens in any battle, and includes selecting the attacking monster and attack target. For all of this time, your monster is considered to be attacking.

You can only activate Trap Cards and such AFTER the opponent declares an attack. That is, cards such as Mirror Force, Sakuretsu Armor, Draining Shield, Ultimate Offering, etc. etc.

Cards that specifically respond to the declaration of an attack (Mirror Force, Sakuretsu Armor, Draining Shield, Magic Cylinder, Negate Attack) must be activated during the first Chain after the attack is declared. For example, your opponent's monster attacks, and you activate Mirror Force. This is legal. However, if you activate Just Desserts and let it resolve, you CANNOT then activate Mirror Force in another Chain.



The example you give involving Enemy Controller is inaccurate. If an attack is declared, and then the opponent does not activate a card, and then you do not activate a card, it is implied that neither player wishes to activate a card, and play immediately moves on to the Damage Step (during which time players can ONLY activate cards that modify ATK/DEF - Enemy Controller doesn't).

If an attack is declared, and the opponent does not activate a card, and you do (Just Desserts, etc.), then once that Chain has resolved your opponent has the opportunity to begin a new Chain by activating a card. However, since the first Chain after attack declaration has already happened, your opponent CANNOT activate a card like Mirror Force, Sakuretsu Armor, Draining Shield, Negate Attack, etc., because such cards can only be activated in the first Chain after the declaration of attack.



Hope that helps!

 

[mikoal]

Very detailed indeed, thanks!!

i was wondering how does the destruction effect of Demise work? what cards are destroyed first (if u can pick any), because if the monster were to be destroyed "first" then the BwC would be destroyed by game mechanics...




Sorry about the geki break question, for some reason i read discard to grave....



quote:
"Cards that specifically respond to the declaration of an attack (Mirror Force, Sakuretsu Armor, Draining Shield, Magic Cylinder, Negate Attack) must be activated during the first Chain after the attack is declared. For example, your opponent's monster attacks, and you activate Mirror Force. This is legal. However, if you activate Just Desserts and let it resolve, you CANNOT then activate Mirror Force in another Chain."



i think i got a bit confused here......
in ur exmaples with
Player A declare atk
Player nothing
Player A uses Just Desserts

are u assuming this chain resolves? if you do not allow the chain to resolve and chain sakuretsu in the chain which the monster delcared an atk it will work right?

if player B does not respond and allow the chain to resolve then sak, force canoot be activated....but player B can still chain sakuretsu right?


and according to the malfunction question


Player A has a set malfunction and a mosnter atking (declaring atk)
Player B responds with raigeki break to destroy monster (discarding a card from hand as cost)
Player A chains malfuction and paying 500 lp

this chain ends and resolves, and you are saying that Player B can start another chain with raigeki break?



So if im understadning u, u are saying you can add as many chains as u want in battle phase, but once both players decides not to , it goes into damage step?


so when can u activate enemy controller and not be able to have the opponent respond with a sak then?

 

[Digital Jedi]

Very detailed indeed, thanks!!

i was wondering how does the destruction effect of Demise work? what cards are destroyed first (if u can pick any), because if the monster were to be destroyed "first" then the BwC would be destroyed by game mechanics...

The destruction all happens at once, just like a built in Dark Hole effect. If any effects were to trigger from that destruction, they'd follow the good ol' rules of the SEGOC. But the destruction still occurs all at once. Blat with Chain will be destroyed by his effect.

quote:
"Cards that specifically respond to the declaration of an attack (Mirror Force, Sakuretsu Armor, Draining Shield, Magic Cylinder, Negate Attack) must be activated during the first Chain after the attack is declared. For example, your opponent's monster attacks, and you activate Mirror Force. This is legal. However, if you activate Just Desserts and let it resolve, you CANNOT then activate Mirror Force in another Chain."

i think i got a bit confused here......
in ur exmaples with
Player A declare atk
Player nothing
Player A uses Just Desserts

are u assuming this chain resolves? if you do not allow the chain to resolve and chain sakuretsu in the chain which the monster delcared an atk it will work right?

if player B does not respond and allow the chain to resolve then sak, force canoot be activated....but player B can still chain sakuretsu right?

Nope. Only the first chain created in response to attack can have "attack responders" in it. No chains created after that, although they may be in the same Battle Step and in response to the same attack, can include card with the "attack response timing".

and according to the malfunction question


Player A has a set malfunction and a mosnter atking (declaring atk)
Player B responds with raigeki break to destroy monster (discarding a card from hand as cost)
Player A chains malfuction and paying 500 lp

this chain ends and resolves, and you are saying that Player B can start another chain with raigeki break?



So if im understadning u, u are saying you can add as many chains as u want in battle phase, but once both players decides not to , it goes into damage step?


so when can u activate enemy controller and not be able to have the opponent respond with a sak then?

See above.

 

[roadhouse007]

I think you
might have misunderstood one of his questions DJ......

i think i got a bit confused here......
in ur exmaples with
Player A declare atk
Player nothing
Player A uses Just Desserts

If player A declares an attack
then player B does nothing
then player A activates Just Desserts
then player A can still chain with Sak armor, Mirror force, etc.

This is still the first chain after the attack declaration. The last thing to happen was declaring the attack. True, if Just Desserts resolved, it would be a new chain and then too late.

Unless it is true that the turn player chooses to activate a card to their own attack declaration first.....the same idea as priority pretty much. Then player A would pass and player B would pass, then it would move into damage step at that point.

Don't ask. I remember hearing somewhere turn player had to act first with cards (ex: enemy controller) or risk the opponent passing as well, then going into damage step. So this is inaccurate I guess? Please, say something if this is wrong.

As far as malfunction, is that how it would work? Or would it be considered "re-setting" the trap card, making it to where it could not be activated until the next turn?

 

[Maruno]

i think i got a bit confused here......
in ur exmaples with
Player A declare atk
Player nothing
Player A uses Just Desserts

are u assuming this chain resolves? if you do not allow the chain to resolve and chain sakuretsu in the chain which the monster delcared an atk it will work right?

if player B does not respond and allow the chain to resolve then sak, force canoot be activated....but player B can still chain sakuretsu right?

Yes, I was assuming that Chain (just Just Desserts) had resolved first. If it does, then you CANNOT activate Sakuretsu Armor in any of the other Chains in the Battle Step.

Alternatively, Player B could Chain Sakuretsu Armor to Just Desserts perfectly well:

Chain Link 1: Just Desserts (Player A)
Chain Link 2: Sakuretsu Armor (Player B)

Something like this could even happen:

Chain Link 1: Just Desserts (Player A)
Chain Link 2: Gift of the Mystical Elf (Player A)
Chain Link 3: Xing Zhen Hu (Player A)
Chain Link 4: Jar of Greed (Player A)
Chain Link 5: Sakuretsu Armor (Player B)

You can only activate cards such as Sakuretsu Armor/Mirror Force/Negate Attack/Magic Cylinder/etc. in the FIRST Chain of the Battle Step, but you can activate them at any point in that Chain.

I think you
might have misunderstood one of his questions DJ......


If player A declares an attack
then player B does nothing
then player A activates Just Desserts
then player B can still chain with Sakuretsu Armor, Mirror Force, etc.

Quote modified to make sense.

Don't ask. I remember hearing somewhere turn player had to act first with cards (ex: enemy controller) or risk the opponent passing as well, then going into damage step. So this is inaccurate I guess? Please, say something if this is wrong.

Yeah, that's wrong. If Player A has attacked with her monster, Player B gets priority to activate a card in response to that attack. Whether they do or don't, Player A gets second priority to chain a card.

Player B could choose not to activate a card in response to the attack. This is risky, because if Player A also chooses not to activate a card in response to the attack, then play immediately moves to the Damage Step.

As far as malfunction, is that how it would work? Or would it be considered "re-setting" the trap card, making it to where it could not be activated until the next turn?

Malfunction does not say to Set the card. It just says to return the card to its original position (most often face-down on the field, but it could be in the owner's hand if Jetroid or Makyura the Destructor is around).

The Trap Card "stalled" by Malfunction can be immediately activated again if it is possible to do so.

Player A has a set malfunction and a mosnter atking (declaring atk)
Player B responds with raigeki break to destroy monster (discarding a card from hand as cost)
Player A chains malfuction and paying 500 lp

this chain ends and resolves, and you are saying that Player B can start another chain with raigeki break?

That's right. See above.

So if im understadning u, u are saying you can add as many chains as u want in battle phase, but once both players decides not to , it goes into damage step?

There are two different scenarios. One is when a Chain already exists, and one where it doesn't.

If a Chain already exists (e.g. Player B activated Jar of Greed), then Player A has the opportunity to add another card to the Chain. If he passes, then Player B has the same opportunity. If HE passes (note the two consecutive passes), then the Chain begins to resolve. Once there have been two consecutive passes, neither player can then decide to add another card to the Chain anyway. They missed their chance.

If a Chain does NOT exist (e.g. one has just finished resolving), then Player B has the opportunity to activate a card to begin a new Chain. If he passes, then Player A has the same opportunity. If HE passes, then play immediately moves to the Damage Step. Once there have been two consecutive passes, neither player can then decide to start a new Chain anyway. They missed their chance.

(N.B. For that last paragraph, I'm not sure whether Player A or Player B gets first priority to start a new Chain. Help would be appreciated here.)

so when can u activate enemy controller and not be able to have the opponent respond with a sak then?

In the second or later Chain of the Battle Step, since Sakuretsu Armor can only be activated in the first Chain of the Battle Step. Your opponent can, however, respond to your Enemy Controller with another card (such as Magic Jammer or Jar of Greed or such).

 

[mikoal]

so its somewhat more difficult to produce a scenario where EC is activate and sak cannot be chained

If the only way that sak cannot be chained is by chain 2, and a pass by player B, then pass by player A would enter damage step, in a way it would force player A to activate something, let it resolve, then start chian 2 and use enemy controller

ie:

player A atks (his mobius atks player Bs thestalos)

playerB no respond, (doesnt see why he should, and has a sak set)

Player A has to start a chain here other wise it would go into damage step (so he plays jar o fgreed)

Player B no response,
Player A no response,chain resolves

Player A (now has priority to activate chain 2?) uses EC

Player B now too late for saku to work........

thats quite an exhaustive way just to get a sak to not work

 

[Maruno]

so its somewhat more difficult to produce a scenario where EC is activate and sak cannot be chained

If the only way that sak cannot be chained is by chain 2, and a pass by player B, then pass by player A would enter damage step, in a way it would force player A to activate something, let it resolve, then start chian 2 and use enemy controller

ie:

player A atks (his mobius atks player Bs thestalos)

playerB no respond, (doesnt see why he should, and has a sak set)

Player A has to start a chain here other wise it would go into damage step (so he plays jar of greed)

Player B no response,
Player A no response,chain resolves

Player A (now has priority to activate chain 2?) uses EC

Player B now too late for saku to work........

thats quite an exhaustive way just to get a sak to not work

I'm afraid so, but that's how it works.

Your example looks exactly right to me, except perhaps who has priority to start the second Chain. Something tells me it's the opponent of the controller of the effect that was Chain Link 1 of the previous Chain (i.e. the controller of whatever resolved last). I wish someone would come and confirm this, though.

 

[roadhouse007]

I hate laptop computers sometimes. I don't even know how I hit the back button but now I have to type all that again.

I am almost positive I read that the non-turn player always has priority after the resolution of any chain. Maybe an example would clear this up.

Player A summons Yellow Gadget
Player B activates Pulling the Rug on Yellow Gadget

Pulling the Rug negates and destroys Yellow Gadget and it's effect. This ends that chain.

Player B can then immediately, before player A can do anything else, activate his set Call of the Haunted (or whatever else he might have). Then, of course, player A could chain to it or if player B passed, then action would be on the turn player.

I hope this helps. I had to write it twice.

 

[Digital Jedi]

I don't think it's been officially defined. But general practice has been that it remains with the Turn Player at the resolution of a chain.

Also, Mikoal, remember that you can't be forced into the Damage Step. You don't progress to any step or phase until both players agree to do so. You only have to let the initial pass by both players (starting with the Turn Player) on responding to the Attack Declaration to miss out on activating Sakuretsu Armor. Or you can wait for the intial response chain to resolve. But the window for attack responders lies within those first two passes in response to the attack declaration.

 

[mikoal]

I don't think it's been officially defined. But general practice has been that it remains with the Turn Player at the resolution of a chain.

Also, Mikoal, remember that you can't be forced into the Damage Step. You don't progress to any step or phase until both players agree to do so. You only have to let the initial pass by both players (starting with the Turn Player) on responding to the Attack Declaration to miss out on activating Sakuretsu Armor. Or you can wait for the intial response chain to resolve. But the window for attack responders lies within those first two passes in response to the attack declaration.

if you cannot be forced into damage step, can you continuously pass back and forth? (i remember reading this from another thread) im guessing not?
so with 2 consecutive passes, the winfow for atk responders is gone, but can u start a chain after 2 consecutive passes? (since u dont want to go into damage step, but u want to miss that window of response)

 

[slither]

if you cannot be forced into damage step, can you continuously pass back and forth? (i remember reading this from another thread) im guessing not?
so with 2 consecutive passes, the winfow for atk responders is gone, but can u start a chain after 2 consecutive passes? (since u dont want to go into damage step, but u want to miss that window of response)

No, you cannot be continuously passing, once both players have passed once, the step continues towards the next sub-step.

 

[Digital Jedi]

I'm afraid not Slither. No game phase or step can progress unless both players agree to do so. A pass/pass doesn't automatically propel you into the Damage Step, which is one of the ways you miss the activation timing for Sakuretsu Armor.

 

[slither]

Ok let me rephrase, I was just emphasising that you cannot stall the game continuously passing from one player to another.

The windows of response are set to a specific timing, ergo your Sak Armor example, but the game progress cannot be stalled by a condition of both players continually passing their timing response.

 

[roadhouse007]

I'm afraid not Slither. No game phase or step can progress unless both players agree to do so. A pass/pass doesn't automatically propel you into the Damage Step, which is one of the ways you miss the activation timing for Sakuretsu Armor.

That is so money. I have to save a link to this page and hope the internet is up next week at tournament. Or maybe I'll just copy the page to my documents folder. Noone will believe this.

 

[mikoal]

doesnt that contradict what maruno is saiyng?

he is saying once 2 consecutive passes occurs, u go into damage step.

If what DJ say is correct, then the enemy controller scenario would be quite easy to perform

IE:

Player A atks
Player B passes
Player A passes
Player B passes
Player A Enemy Controller

and now player B cannot use Sak

 

[Digital Jedi]

Ok let me rephrase, I was just emphasising that you cannot stall the game continuously passing from one player to another.

The windows of response are set to a specific timing, ergo your Sak Armor example, but the game progress cannot be stalled by a condition of both players continually passing their timing response.

Right, you can't do it just to stall for time. But that doesn't mean you can't do it at all. It just like any other phase in the game. Just because we both pass in the Standby Phase, doesn't mean we can't choose to pass again and are propelled into Main Phase 1. We can continually pass within any given phase, but policy prevents us from abusing it for time stalling or to just be funny.

 

[Digital Jedi]

doesnt that contradict what maruno is saiyng?

he is saying once 2 consecutive passes occurs, u go into damage step.

If what DJ say is correct, then the enemy controller scenario would be quite easy to perform

IE:

Player A atks
Player B passes
Player A passes
Player B passes
Player A Enemy Controller

and now player B cannot use Sak

There don't have to be that many passes for declaration timing to be missed. Remember, the Turn Player has priority to respond to his own attack first. The Opponent doesn't get to respond to it until the Turn Player passes. Once that happens, this is the only time the opponent would be able to activate Attack Responders like Sakuretsu Armor. If he chooses to pass back to the Turn Player the turn player could then activate Enemy Controller, but the opponent could not chain anything with Sakuretsu's specific timing.

 

[Maruno]

So, you're basically saying exactly the opposite of everything I've been saying.

This game is messed up.

 

[DarkLogicianOfCaos]

Where is skey? Okay, I've been silent for the last few days because I kept making stupid mistakes, but here are some things that I am certain of, based largely on the discussions we have had here and the Judge List, etc.

First, <edit> Realized my error here. See, still making stupid mistakes. Need a vacation!

Second, unless something has changed around here, we have had this discussion about not responding to the attack declaration (which has a specific timing issue), but not passing the attack proper (in which multiple chains can be activated) and into the damage step. It has been heretofore (I thought) settled that you have:
1. Attack Declaration (any response?) nope?
2. Attack (any Response?) nope?
3. Start of Damage calculation (including Flipping Face-Up a set card), etc.

and that even if both pass on the declaration sub-step, both agreeing to move on to the Attack proper, that any could respond (TP first, then NTP) to the actual attack, before entering the damage step. When did this change? I must have missed the memo in the 3-4 days I was out.


Here are a couple of pertinant posts regarding this (from the same thread, but different pages):
http://www.cogonline.net/showpost.php?p=159306&postcount=5
http://www.cogonline.net/showpost.php?p=159769&postcount=23