Skill Drain vs. Breaker's Counter

R

Raigekick

New Member
Situation:
Player A has a Set "Dust Tornado" that was set two turns ago.
Player A is the turn player.

Player B has a face-up "Skill Drain" and a face-up "Mechanicalchaser"
Player B also has a face-down "Bottomless Trap Hole"

Player A knows that Player B's face-down Trap card is "Bottomless Trap Hole" thanks to Player B's previously activated "Fake Trap".

Player A wants to trick Player B in to not activating his BTH.

Play:
  1. Player A summons "Breaker the Magical Warrior".
  2. Breaker's Trigger Effect Activates by trying to place a Spell Counter on Breaker ("Skill Drain" does not stop Trigger Effect from activating).
  3. Player B does not chain. He thinks his "Mechanicalchaser is safe from a 1600 ATK).
  4. Player A chains "Dust Tornado" and targets "Skill Drain".
Question:
1) Is it too late for Player B to chain his BTH?
2) If it is too late for this chain, can he activate BTH on another chain because the first chain was for Breaker's Trigger Effect.
 
Sort by date Sort by votes
It is not too late in that chain to activate BTH because the last thing to complete was the summon and the chain triggered by the summon is still being built. (If BTH were a counter trap then it would be a different story because Coun ter traps must be played immediately after what you are trying to counter.)

If your opponent waits until it resolves, then it WILL be too late because the last thing to resolve was not the summoning of breaker and the timing has been missed.

Spot's Knight
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Breaker's effect triggers when it is normal summoned, and Botomless Trap Hole can be activated when a monster is summoned, meaning that if both effects are going to be activated, they would have to go in a chain.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
I may be wrong, but I believe it WOULD be too late to chain BTH, since the last thing to occur is NOT the summoning of Breaker, but the activation of Dust Tornado.

The summoning player gave his opponent the chance to respond to the summon and they did not take that opportunity, so the summoning player now starts the chain with Dust Tornado. Anything activated in the chain afterwards would be in response to Dust Tornado, not the Summon.

Just my two cents....
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
skey23 said:
I may be wrong, but I believe it WOULD be too late to chain BTH, since the last thing to occur is NOT the summoning of Breaker, but the activation of Dust Tornado.

The summoning player gave his opponent the chance to respond to the summon and they did not take that opportunity, so the summoning player now starts the chain with Dust Tornado. Anything activated in the chain afterwards would be in response to Dust Tornado, not the Summon.

Just my two cents....
Click to expand...


You respond to the last thing to resolve. Activating any card does not change the state of the last thing to resolve. Anything activated in a chain with Dust Tornado would be just that: In Chain with dust tornado, not in response--an entire chain is in response to the same thing.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
From the FAQ on Bottomless Trap Hole....

<Quote>

This card can only be activated when the last thing that resolved in the Duel was the opponent Normal/Flip/Special Summoning a monster(s). It cannot be activated at any other time

<End Quote>

This is a topic that is often misunderstood. It's often refered to as the last "fact" to happen.

Let's say that you have a Gemini Elf and a D.D. Warrior Lady in face up attack position and I have no monsters on the field. You have a face down card in your S/T zone and so do I.

You've got the monster advantage on me obviously. I need to clear the field. I summon my Archfiend Soldier and ask if you have a response seeing if you'll chain something to my summon. You have no response. I then activate my face down Torrential Tribute. "Wait!" you say. "You can't do that, you passed priority to me. The timing isn't right!"

It was a legal play. If I wanted to see if you would activate your Torrential Tribute or some other card and save mine if I could. The last "Fact" to happen was that my Archfiend Soldier was summoned making the conditions for the activation of Torrential Tribute still applicable.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
John, I don't think your example is entirely correct. When you summoned your monster, you had 1st crack to respond to your own summon but you passed. When your opponent then passed as well, the moment to respond to the summon has now passed completely since both players in fact did nothing. Priority for the turn player is a double-edged sword since yes it gives you the chance to do something first, but likewise forces you to do something first at times when you may not want to.

Back with the original question, the timing for "Bottomless Trap Hole" also would have passed since even though Breaker would not get a counter put on him with "Skill Drain" on the field, the effect would have activated thereby giving the opponent a chance to respond or pass right there. If he didn't activate BTH at that time, the timing to respond would have passed.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
RE: What John posted.

I agree with that since it was YOUR trap card you were activating to YOUR summon.

In Raigekick's example, Player A's opponent did not respond to the summon/effect of Breaker, so Player A activated HIS Dust Tornado. This matches your example situation. Now, the question was whether or not Player B could now activate Bottomless Trap Hole in a chain to Player A's Dust Tornado.

I believe Player B could not do this since the last 'fact' to occur was the activation of Dust Tornado, not the summon/effect of Breaker.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
skey23 said:
I believe Player B could not do this since the last 'fact' to occur was the activation of Dust Tornado, not the summon/effect of Breaker.
Click to expand...


Activating a card is not a last fact. It would be abusive if it were:


FALSE Examples:

  • Player a summons a monsters
    player A uses priority to activate a card.
    Player b Misses the chance to Activate Trap Hole/ Torrential Tribute since there was a card activated inbetween the summon.

    Player A declares an Attack
    Player A uses priority to activate Jar of Greed
    Player B misses the chance to activate Mirror Force/ Magic Cylinder/ Sakuretsu Armor because the last thing to happen was a card activating.

Obviously there's something wrong with that, a player using Priority to prevent so many powerful cards from activatin
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
RE: What DaGuyWitBluGlasses said.

Ahhh...I see your point. That would not be a good thing.
Ok, let's take this scenario...Sorry Raigekick, I'm trying to get to an answer for you....

Player A has a set Mirror Force and a set Magic Cylinders from his last turn. It's Player B's turn and he attacks Player A. Player A activates Mirror Force. Player B does nothing, so Player A chains Magic Cylinders. We all know this is a legitimate combo. It's been posted on the boards several times. What would happen if Player B chained something like Jar of Greed to Mirror Force? Would Player A still be able to chain Magic Cylinders to Jar of Greed? Or has the timing been missed?

Thanks!
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
skey23 said:
RE: What John posted.

I agree with that since it was YOUR trap card you were activating to YOUR summon.

In Raigekick's example, Player A's opponent did not respond to the summon/effect of Breaker, so Player A activated HIS Dust Tornado. This matches your example situation. Now, the question was whether or not Player B could now activate Bottomless Trap Hole in a chain to Player A's Dust Tornado.

I believe Player B could not do this since the last 'fact' to occur was the activation of Dust Tornado, not the summon/effect of Breaker.
Click to expand...


Read the part of the FAQ on Bottomless Trap Hole I quoted again, especially the bold text I've highlighted...


From the FAQ on Bottomless Trap Hole....

<Quote>

This card can only be activated when the last thing that resolved in the Duel was the opponent Normal/Flip/Special Summoning a monster(s). It cannot be activated at any other time

<End Quote>
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Ok..so if I've understood correctly. You are saying that Player B CAN respond to Dust Tornado with Botomless Trap Hole and this is the reason:

Step 1. Player A summons Breaker - Summon is resolved.
Step 2. Breaker's effect activates - place counter on Breaker.
Step 3. Player waits for Player B to respond to Breaker's effect with Botomless Trap Hole. Player B declines.
Step 4. Player A chains to Breaker's effect with Dust Tornado.
Step 5. Player B CAN chain Botomless Trap Hole to Dust Tornado since the last 'thing'/'fact' to resolve in the duel was the summoning of Breaker because everything else is still chaining and resolutions have not begun to occur.

Am I correct?

I just realized that I've gone full circle back to what spotsknight initially posted...I feel silly now....

Thanks!
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
That still doesn't feel right though. In essence then you can summon a monster (say a Reflect Bounder) and neither you nor your opponent respond at that time. Then you go ahead and activate "Limiter Removal". That mean now I can chain "Torrential Tribute" or "Bottomless Trap Hole" since the last thing to resolve was still the summon? Or say you activated "Pot of Greed" instead. I decide "ok, BTH it before you start drawing".

Part of my disagreement on that is the fact that it has been stated that there is a definate response window for the summon. Look at the 4 cards from RDS that state a trap card cannot be activated if this monster is summoned. What's the "official" ruling for that that's not on the card? That you can only not activate a trap card in response, but you can later in the turn. "Ring of Destruction" would be a valid activation since it's not in response to the summon, just a nuking of a monster. Esp. where you decide to activate say a normal Spell card or something, at that point it just feels way to late to decide to TT or BTH something if this is the first thing that's being done after the monster was summoned.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
If neither you nor your opponent respond to the summoning of Reflect Bounder (meaning basically you say you pass and your opponent says the same), then the window of opportunity is gone. If you play Limiter Removal, it is too late for your opponent to activate BTH, Torrential Tribute, or what have you because the period of a monster being summoned has passed.

In regards to activating a Normal Spell Card, the time to do that is after the window for summoning has passed (you cannot activate a Normal Spell Card in the same 'window' as the summoning. Normal Spell Cards are too slow).
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Now that makes perfect sense.

But wasn't there something on priority that says I can pass pirority to my opponent and if my opponent passes it back, then I HAVE to activate something or miss the chance..?

I guess the question would ultimately be are there two chances to activate based on priority, or just one, if you pass it, you miss it type thing.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
John Danker said:
Read the part of the FAQ on Bottomless Trap Hole I quoted again, especially the bold text I've highlighted...


From the FAQ on Bottomless Trap Hole....

<Quote>

This card can only be activated when the last thing that resolved in the Duel was the opponent Normal/Flip/Special Summoning a monster(s). It cannot be activated at any other time

<End Quote>
Click to expand...
It doesnt matter John.

Response timing is a one time offer. A double "Pass" is a pass on response timing. You each get an opportunity to respond to an event, once both players have passed (no activation) the Response Chain resolves and the response timing is over.

The Torrential Tribute scenario is illegal, as the Turn Player passed on response timing and so did the Opponent.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
skey23 said:
Ok..so if I've understood correctly. You are saying that Player B CAN respond to Dust Tornado with Botomless Trap Hole and this is the reason:

Step 1. Player A summons Breaker - Summon is resolved.
Step 2. Breaker's effect activates - place counter on Breaker.
Step 3. Player waits for Player B to respond to Breaker's effect with Botomless Trap Hole. Player B declines.
Step 4. Player A chains to Breaker's effect with Dust Tornado.
Step 5. Player B CAN chain Botomless Trap Hole to Dust Tornado since the last 'thing'/'fact' to resolve in the duel was the summoning of Breaker because everything else is still chaining and resolutions have not begun to occur.

Am I correct?

I just realized that I've gone full circle back to what spotsknight initially posted...I feel silly now....

Thanks!
Click to expand...


Whoops! Not quite.

Step 1. Player A summons Breaker - Summon is resolved.
Step 2. Breaker's effect activates - place counter on Breaker.

Nope! Breaker's effect activates only, the counter isn't placed...now continue on to step 3

Step 3. Player waits for Player B to respond to Breaker's effect with Botomless Trap Hole. Player B declines.
Step 4. Player A chains to Breaker's effect with Dust Tornado.
Step 5. Player B CAN chain Botomless Trap Hole to Dust Tornado since the last 'thing'/'fact' to resolve in the duel was the summoning of Breaker because everything else is still chaining and resolutions have not begun to occur.

If the counter were placed on Breaker what would be the last fact? Breaker's effect would have resolved making the timing of Bottomless Trap Hole incorrect.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
It still doesn't matter...even if there were no Triggered Effect from the monster summoned or any other monster for that matter.

Response timing does not infinately last if both players keep passing.

Example: Archfiend Soldier is Normal Summoned

~Response Chain

Turn Player : Do you wish to activate? No = Pass
Opponent : Do you wish to activate? No = Pass

~ Response resolved with no response

Empty Chain Block with no response timing
* At this point all effects with Summon response timing can no longer be activated.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top