Victory Dragon & Player Etiquette

Dillie-O

Dillie-O

Council of Heroes
First off, sorry it seems like I'm away. I only get limited morning/evening/weekend time in the City since my new job has this place websensed... 8^D But here's something we've been debating in the Lair.

According to Pojo, Victory Dragon has been confirmed a Shonen Jump promo card. I've never been the biggest rumor believer, but for the sake of this argument, here's the text:

Victory Dragon
Dark/Dragon/8/2400/3000
This card cannot be special summon. You must sacrifice 3 Dragon sub-type monsters on your field to sacrifice summon this monster. When you successfully bring opponent's lifepoints to 0 as a result of this card's direct attack, the controller of this
card wins the match.

So there ya have it. A nice little "insta gib" for the entire match! You can be down 1-0, pull off a win with this guy in round 2, and automatically take the cake! Gets pretty intense eh?

But here's my question. Let's say its Game 1 of the duel. Player A has Player B down to 2000 lifepoints, has effectively "cleared" the field and slaps down a Victory Dragon. At this point there's a pretty good hunch that Player A is going to attack, get the win, and effectively win the match.

So as soon as Player B sees the Victory Dragon hit the field, heck as soon as he sees 3 dragons starting to get cleared from the field, Player B puts his hand on his deck and says "I surrender this game to you". They do this knowing full well (as do us all) that they have just bought themselves at least 1 more round to try and come from behind.

Is this legal? Is this poor sportsmanship? What's the call here?
 
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Marano said:
Chaos Emperor or Cyber End? And Black Luster Soldier isn't much of a threat in today's game. Never really was. There are better Ritual Monsters.
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<Ahem> <whispers>The other BLS</whispers> ;)

The real issue I see is whether or not conceding has ever been considered illegal. As far as I know, ANY game allows a person to concede a "duel" if they don't want to play it. But this particular card may redefine the viability of that. Just like Question, which I believe is the only reason they don't allow note taking in Yu-Gi-Oh!, they may make conceding a duel akin to conceding a match.
 
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The giving up rules should state quite simply this......

A player may only give up on their turn during their main phase.

That way if they were attacking one of your monsters and for whatever reason they were forced to attack your VD instead and lost they still cant give up.[/QUOTE]

Actually, if I'm not mistaken, there are TWO Main Phases...if you attack and don't survive or defeat Victory Dragon after your FIRST main phase, then you could concede and give up during your SECOND main phase...technicality but true none the less...

As for Victory Dragon and it's effect...I believe that a player should be allowed to scoop during their turn but I still believe that giving the Match and not the Duel to a player still doesn't play well into the spirit of the game. Anyone can get lucky at anytime and be able to pull off the card effect but to allow a MATCH win based on this premise is detrimental to the game.
 
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Personally, I think any Deck that can get him out at the right time deserves to win.
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In my humble opinion, that's totally irrelevant. You could argue all day long that this card "isn't overpowered" and "won't imbalance the game" because it is so hard to pull off. But to me that is avoiding the point that the card contradicts one of the most critical game mechanics: That NO player could EVER win a match without the other player getting a chance to do some re-shuffling and re-strategizing. Think about it - You come into a match with a very bad opening hand, and before you ever get to even try one of your side-deck cards, you've already lost. Is that fair? If that IS fair, then what was the initial purpose of ever creating the "Best two-out-of-three" rule to start with?

With regards to Digital Jedi's comments: I don't believe we have any official text ever stating that a player may concede the duel. Bearing that in mind, it may be that you could only ever do that if your opponent didn't decide to stop you. ;)
 
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Perhaps it will be reviewd and subject to ban because of the unfair advantage is creates?

Doubt it though.. this really is a big issue though, too bad we don't have any official clarifications yet.
 
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I'm surprised at the amount of "unfair advantage" being attributed to Victory Dragon. It is by no means a "quick", or "unfair" win. Granted it does provide the opportunity to finish a match, but when compared to most OTK decks that advantage really pales in comparison. I would agree with the requirement that a player may only "scoop" during their own turn. That would seem to make the most sense. As for the question regarding the opponent losing by attacking Victory Dragon the text provided (though it may not be correct) would suggest that the match win effect is only available when Victory Dragon is attacking not when he is attacked.
 
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Granted. The amount of effort it's going to take to get Victory Dragon to the field will be consequential. It's not the first broke effect we've ever had, that is significantly hard to get to the field. Consider, too, that he's not exactly immune to things that respond to attacks. Or worse yet, imagine him getting Bottomless Trap Hole-d? :shudder
 
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It seems to me. that since it's effect applies to matches, it will probably be BANNED in the Advanced format. It'll be one of those fun cards you use in matches with friends, along with the egyptian gods and computer proxy cards.

It's just like the EGs. It's hard to get on the field, yes, but once you do, the effect gives you a big advantage. Granted, it IS harder to play, but the effect isn't really fair, now is it?
 
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IMHO I still consider it unsportmanship like, let's bring this to the ring just for a second, a boxing ring.

The heavyweight champion of the world is defending his title against the number one contender, now the champion "knows" he's going to lose, so hey, he decides to withdrawl from the match. The number one contender doesn't get a chance to win the title then?

This game is biased with many things, unfortunately Konami decided to create Victory Dragon, it is all part of the game regardless, taking away from it is not IMHO a solution, the game sits as it sits, and unsportmanlike behavior is not a way to go.

Let's say that a player with V. Dragon is dueling against a player with Cyber-Stein OTK, would it be fair that the player playing Cyber scoops the first duel, then he got lucky and drew Cyber the first turn next 2 duels and defeated the V. Dragon player in less than 5 min?

Fairness or not it's a game and every game is made to be played regardless of the outcomes.
 
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I fear I may have been misunderstood. When I said the effect of Victory Dragon is unfair, I did not mean that it was broken in any way. In fact, I feel Victory Dragon is weak bordering on just plain junk. What I meant is that it violates a necessary mechanic of the game. The "Best-two-out-of-three" rule was created for a reason. If they are going to release Victory Dragon now, why did they make that rule in the first place?

I strongly suspect, as has been suggested here, that Victory Dragon will have a permanent place on the Ban List.
 
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I think that it will remain off the ban list just long enough for everyone to want one and spend lots of money trying to get it. Then it will be banned. Frankly, I have never had trouble getting 3 dragons on the field. Especially not now, with Inferno Reckless Summon, or RFtDD after Dragon's Mirror. I think the outcry from peple loosing a match in the first game will be enough that Konami will ban it (or at least limit it.

But, then again....dragons have always taken some extreme talent to play competitively!!
 
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Jason_C said:
I strongly suspect, as has been suggested here, that Victory Dragon will have a permanent place on the Ban List.
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Victory Dragon was on the Ban list in Japan before, however it was take off on the current one. Will it go back on? Perhaps. After all Makyura was dropped on the ban list right after it came out and that looks like it will stay on there permanently. However, as stated, Victory Dragon is not that easy to get out, cannot be normal summoned, and yes as of now, I can simply scoop. "Fairness" aside, that is a prerogative that I have until there's an "official" ruling on the matter.
 
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There is a official ruling on game concession under tournament rules. As of Right now you can concede a game at any time. This will probably change when Victory dragon comes out.

21. Game Concession
Players may concede a game or match at any time, provided that the concession does not involve compensation in exchange for the concession. Players may not offer their opponents any type of compensation or bribe in exchange for a concession.
 
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of all the arguments i've heard, either for, or against V dragon, i haven't heard the argument of him having to land the deathblow. that compounded with difficult summoning conditions, in conjunction with the other player going all out to kill the monster, i don't see the problem with it. Personally I'd love ta see someone get that sucker to the field. the first thing i'd do is shake that person's hand, for getting it onto the field then activate Bottomless.
I swear, that card is gonna be near as hard as getting Dark Sage onto the field. I don't see a ban on it, but i would bet a card that it gets restricted to one, at the very least.
 
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bear said:
of all the arguments i've heard, either for, or against V dragon, i haven't heard the argument of him having to land the deathblow. that compounded with difficult summoning conditions, in conjunction with the other player going all out to kill the monster, i don't see the problem with it. Personally I'd love ta see someone get that sucker to the field. the first thing i'd do is shake that person's hand, for getting it onto the field then activate Bottomless.
I swear, that card is gonna be near as hard as getting Dark Sage onto the field. I don't see a ban on it, but i would bet a card that it gets restricted to one, at the very least.
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Well I plan on running it in my Horus deck. I'll probably get the effect about 1/50 duels but it will be sweet when I do. As far as getting the dragons on the field for tribute that isn't the problem. Getting V-dragon in my hand when I do and being able to attack for game is.
 
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