Brain Jacker--What A Day!!

masterwoo0

masterwoo0

NINJA4LIFE
Okay, we all know the effect, we know that it isnt April 1 yet, but a TO in my area allowed FET to be played in a Sanctioned Tourney.

Before you start Flaming (no pun intended) the thread by saying "It isnt April!!" I tried that while I was there, and didnt enter the tourney even though it was for a Needle Worm.

The situation that happened was just like it stated in the ruling. It was attacked face-down, so it was destroyed after Damage Cal, no effect.

The player was dueling to play for the right to move on for the Needle Worm final round, so he argued like hell that he should still be able to get his effect because it becomes an equip card when flipped.

The Judging Official, asked me, since I stuck around to see who would win (And I was SHOCKED by the eventual winner), why Brain Jacker cant get his effect when attacked, and I told him that Brain Jacker has to survive the attack in order to use his effect in the "Resolve Effects" portion of the Damage Step. The counter was, "What about Penguin Soldier?"

Anyhow, it didnt sit well with the young man with the Brain Jacker, so he deferred to the Head Judge, who looked it up on the internet, and the great debate began.... Needless to say, he ruled that it would not get the effect, but he was still uncomfortable with ruling it that way and I couldnt provide anymore assistance even after coming here and the Judge List.

I guess at issue is, and I am not changed from my stance that it will not get effect, "What are the mechanics to him NOT getting the effect outside of the little ruling that's given on UDE site?"

Remember, this thread is NOT about playing FET early (but we wouldnt have this argument for that).
 
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I'm actually quite surprised regarding the Judging Official doubts. (But then again I wasn't there so I shouldn't judge. Pun alert.) I would say that it's the simpilest of game mechanics that explain it. In Penguin Soldier's case it's true his effect doesn't require him to be on the field . . . But consider that Penguin Soldier similarly cannot return himself if he is destroyed.

Brain Jacker's primary effect requires him to move himself to another zone on the field, but like Penguin Soldier (if trying to target itself) if Battle Damage deems him destroyed there is nothing left for his effect to move.

Signed,
My 2 Cents.
 
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I just thought of another example.

Dark Cat with White Tail
FLIP: Select 2 Monster Cards on your opponent's side of the field and 1 Monster Card on your side of the field and return them to their owners' hands.

This card requires "there must be a minimum of 2 monsters on your opponent's side of the field and a minimum of 1 monster on your side of the field." Unlike Penguin Soldier which lets you select "up to two" monsters, the cat requires three monsters total and on specific sides of the field to get it's effect.

Now get this, if the only monster you control is the Cat when he's attacked and flipped and he's destroyed, he doesn't get his effect. There has to be at least one monster on your side of the field at activation (which happens after damage calculation) and since there is none his effect just fizzles. (Fizzle is not a game term. . . oh wait . . . that's VS! ;))
 
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The damage step is a curious state where a monster is deemed destroyed, but it still hangs around on the field a bit while some effects resolve, then it makes its way to the graveyard.

When it comes to targets for flip effects and such, it's best to consider that the destroyed monster is already in the graveyard (Except for effects that require it to be sent to the graveyard, which happen later).
 
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I would have sworn this Question was on the judge list and your ruling was correct for the reason you thought. The better comparison to make would have been with the card "Kiseitai" since that card actually states that it negates the attack while "Brain Jacker" doesn't.

And in fact... your answer was stated before the FET Preview... (found it)

"¢ If this monster is attacked while face-down, and is destroyed as a result of battle, its effect does not activate. (Unlike "Kiseitai" because "Kiseitai" has an effect preventing damage calculation.)

There you go.
 
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densetsu_x said:
I would have sworn this Question was on the judge list and your ruling was correct for the reason you thought. The better comparison to make would have been with the card "Kiseitai" since that card actually states that it negates the attack while "Brain Jacker" doesn't.

And in fact... your answer was stated before the FET Preview... (found it)

"¢ If this monster is attacked while face-down, and is destroyed as a result of battle, its effect does not activate. (Unlike "Kiseitai" because "Kiseitai" has an effect preventing damage calculation.)

There you go.
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Yeah. I showed the Head Judge that ruling. He still wasnt totally convinced that that was enough info for him to be comfortable with, even though he went with it anyway.

His main "irritant" was the Netrep card text info. For some reason, the player that used Brain Jacker was able to plant the seeds of doubt that a face-down Jacker could still get his effect somehow when attacked and destroyed.
 
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masterwoo0 said:
Yeah. I showed the Head Judge that ruling. He still wasnt totally convinced that that was enough info for him to be comfortable with, even though he went with it anyway.

His main "irritant" was the Netrepâ„¢ card text info. For some reason, the player that used Brain Jacker was able to plant the seeds of doubt that a face-down Jacker could still get his effect somehow when attacked and destroyed.
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I guesss it's easy to presume that, being that certain effects linger on the field after Damage Calculation. Brain Jacker is really the first card to ever make me think about the resolution of FLIP effects in that much finite detail.
 
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He didn't believe the ruling? It came straight from UDE itself and he had a problem with it? This wasn't a "Netrep" decision, this was what they told us on how to rule it before the Sneak Preview. Some people...
 
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densetsu_x said:
He didn't believe the ruling? It came straight from UDE itself and he had a problem with it? This wasn't a "Netrepâ„¢" decision, this was what they told us on how to rule it before the Sneak Preview. Some people...
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Oh I wish you could have been there! The player was heated!! The Head Judge was heated! He kept saying that even if he didnt agree with the way it was worded, it STILL said that Brain Jacker did not get his effect if attacked and "destroyed as a result of battle" face-down.

I did all I could to try to help the situation. They even pulled out the Version 5 Rule Book.

The player kept saying that we were "interpreting" the ruling wrong. All the time I'm thinking to myself that I'm glad I'm not playing because Flaming Eternity cards are causing problems this early, and it's not even April yet....
 
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I had the exact same situation happen to me at the FET Sneak Peak I judged. The player even brought up the whole Penguin Soldier Argument. I tried explaining it to him a dozen different ways. Finally, I brought the FET Rulings I printed out and had brought with me. Told them these are straight from UDE, and showed him the ruling. And all he could say was "Oh" and went back to playing.
 
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masterwoo0 said:
Oh I wish you could have been there! The player was heated!! The Head Judge was heated! He kept saying that even if he didnt agree with the way it was worded, it STILL said that Brain Jacker did not get his effect if attacked and "destroyed as a result of battle" face-down.

I did all I could to try to help the situation. They even pulled out the Version 5 Rule Book.

The player kept saying that we were "interpreting" the ruling wrong. All the time I'm thinking to myself that I'm glad I'm not playing because Flaming Eternity cards are causing problems this early, and it's not even April yet....
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This is the kind of madness I'm dreading when I run my first Tournament on April 2nd (it will probably be the first tournament in Ireland with the new Banned list and FET in play)... just glad I've downloaded Ronin and been putting so much effort into copying all the Judge list messages into word files, so if someone argues with Ronin I can show them a copy of the exact message from Kevin/Curtis/whoever.
 
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We were going over Brain Jacker in another thread right after the Pre-Release trying to figure out the game mechanic behind why it doesn't work. When you first look at it you think, "Well, after damage calculation it's considered destroyed so it doesn't get it's effect" Then of course someone brings up the fact that Fiber Jar, D.D. Warrior Lady, Penguin Soldier, etc. get their effect.

Perhaps the best way to explain it is this....

Once a monster is considered destroyed it can go a lot of places....it can go to the graveyard, it can get removed from play, it can get combined with the deck.....but it CAN'T stay on the field!
 
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John Danker said:
We were going over Brain Jacker in another thread right after the Pre-Release trying to figure out the game mechanic behind why it doesn't work. When you first look at it you think, "Well, after damage calculation it's considered destroyed so it doesn't get it's effect" Then of course someone brings up the fact that Fiber Jar, D.D. Warrior Lady, Penguin Soldier, etc. get their effect.

Perhaps the best way to explain it is this....

Once a monster is considered destroyed it can go a lot of places....it can go to the graveyard, it can get removed from play, it can get combined with the deck.....but it CAN'T stay on the field!
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I think I like that explanation best! If it can spread around, then it will more than likely help people see how these cards function, and "when" they can.
 
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John Danker said:
We were going over Brain Jacker in another thread right after the Pre-Release trying to figure out the game mechanic behind why it doesn't work. When you first look at it you think, "Well, after damage calculation it's considered destroyed so it doesn't get it's effect" Then of course someone brings up the fact that Fiber Jar, D.D. Warrior Lady, Penguin Soldier, etc. get their effect.

Perhaps the best way to explain it is this....

Once a monster is considered destroyed it can go a lot of places....it can go to the graveyard, it can get removed from play, it can get combined with the deck.....but it CAN'T stay on the field!
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Exactly so. At the pre-release, I had to actually bring up the fact that Brain Jacker has to still be alive to equip itself. No other FLIP: effect monsters have the trouble of their effects resolving, but no other FLIP: effect monsters that I can recall "equip" to a monster.

Take Fiber Jar for example, I had to take time to understand why it would always go back to the deck, which I hated and thought extremely broken, but when you look at it, it's simple. If it's destroyed in battle after flipped, you can say it's in the graveyard when the effect resolves, so it just gets shuffled back because of that. If it's alive on the field, that's self-explanatory. If it gets removed from play, tough luck, the effect still goes off, but you aren't getting it back into the deck that easily.

I know this may sound simple, but UDE, if allowed to, could have avoided this whole mess just by putting "This creature must not be removed from the field in any way for its effect to resolve successfully." Then again, someone would probably find a way to even try to dispute that. I can bet this Question will come up in many, many tournaments shortly.

I just thought of something else... can you 'Brain Jack' Relinquished or T.E.R.? Someone would probably try to dispute either way with that one.
 
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CraniumX said:
I know this may sound simple, but UDE, if allowed to, could have avoided this whole mess just by putting "This creature must not be removed from the field in any way for its effect to resolve successfully." Then again, someone would probably find a way to even try to dispute that. I can bet this Question will come up in many, many tournaments shortly.
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That still wouldn't have solved the need for explination. Flip effects are resolved before destroyed cards are sent to the graveyard. This is what makes the whole Question of Brain Jacker being able to resolve come up. At the point a monster's flip effect would normally resolve in damage step Brain Jacker IS still on the field....it is, however, considered destroyed (assUming the attacking monster's atk was higher than Brain Jacker's def.) which is why I made the statement about a monster being considered destroyed can go to the graveyard, it can be removed from play, it can be combined with the deck, but it CAN'T stay on the field.
 
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Raigekick - someone would probably try to argue (pointlessly) that since it is an actual card, they would be a jerk and try to say it had it's one equip...., lol

-chaosruler
 
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