Cold Wave vs. Relinquished, Union Monsters, etc.

Y

ygo doc

New Member
OK, how do you guys rule here?

Player 1 has Relinquished on the Field. He plays Cold Wave in Main Phase 1. Can Player 1 equip an opponent's monster to his Relinquished?

Co-related question. Player 1 has X-Head Cannon on the Field. He plays Cold Wave. Can he summon Heavy Mech Support Platform and equip it to the X-Head Cannon?

doc
 
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I would say that because the player is not actually playing any spell or trap cards......they are playing monster effects. This is an example of game mechanics making the monster a spell or trap card. They are not actually playing a card from their hand, or a previously one set on the field.

EDIT: I forgot to put how I would rule the situation: I would allow these things to happen. Like I said, because there are no spell or trap cards being played....the monster effects are making the cards into equip cards. The player isn't playing a spell or trap card.
 
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Fury said:
In case of Relinquished it is increasing its own stats by that of the equipped monster, not the equip itself. So it would work.
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It is basing its stats off of a Equip Spell Card, that has no effect, which basically means Relinquished has no stats while Cold Wave is active.
 
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masterwoo0 said:
It is basing its stats off of a Equip Spell Card, that has no effect, which basically means Relinquished has no stats while Cold Wave is active.
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Since when did an Equip Spell Card have ATK and DEF?

No, the equipped monster does nothing. Relinquished looks at the equipped card and copies its stats. You cannot simply negate ATK and DEF.
 
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Maruno said:
Since when did an Equip Spell Card have ATK and DEF?

No, the equipped monster does nothing. Relinquished looks at the equipped card and copies its stats. You cannot simply negate ATK and DEF.
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We are talking about equipping a card while Cold Wave is active. Not while it is already equipped, and then Cold Wave is activated. Since when does a Monster have ATK an DEF when it is a Equip Spell Card??
 
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I know what we're talking about.

I'm saying that Equip Spell Cards don't have effects saying "my ATK is x, my DEF is y". It's a part of the Monster Card, not an effect.

In my mind, the presence of Cold Wave has no effect on how this works. The effect of Relinquished equips the card, and the effect of Relinquished looks at the card to find stats. Stats are not effects. Nowhere in this scenario is a Spell or Trap Card being played, or having its effect used.
 
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Maruno said:
I know what we're talking about.

I'm saying that Equip Spell Cards don't have effects saying "my ATK is x, my DEF is y". It's a part of the Monster Card, not an effect.

In my mind, the presence of Cold Wave has no effect on how this works. The effect of Relinquished equips the card, and the effect of Relinquished looks at the card to find stats. Stats are not effects. Nowhere in this scenario is a Spell or Trap Card being played, or having its effect used.
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You're right, if that was all that mattered. Cold Wave also prevents effects already in play from working.

So, let's say you have Armed Samurai - Ben Kei equipped with United We Stand, Mage Power, and x2 Axe of Despair, with 4 Sheep Tokens on the field.

What is his ATK, and how many times can he attack that turn?
 
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If Imperial Order negates the equip, Relinquished still increases its own stats because the equip itself has no effect at all to negate. Relinquished copies the stats printed on the card, and stats are not effects.

EDIT: Well the stats increases coming from the equips are negated but Ben's own effect which gives him additional attacks is not. Cold Wave doesnt negate monster effects.
(So he can attack 5 times and its ATK is its original ATK.)

EDIT2:
masterwoo0 said:
Since when does a Monster have ATK an DEF when it is a Equip Spell Card??
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Since when can a face-down card be equipped to something?;)
 
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Fury said:
If Imperial Order negates the equip, Relinquished still increases its own stats because the equip itself has no effect at all to negate. Relinquished copies the stats printed on the card, and stats are not effects.

EDIT: Well the stats increases coming from the equips are negated but Ben's own effect which gives him additional attacks is not. Cold Wave doesnt negate monster effects.
(So he can attack 5 times and its ATK is its original ATK.)

EDIT2:
Since when can a face-down card be equipped to something?;)
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Why would they be negated? Cold Wave doesnt negate anything. The equip cards have already been activated. They aren't continuous effects, as recognized by the Infinity Symbol, so why would they be negated if they are already activated from a previous turn?

Shouldn't he be sitting at 8500 ATK, and have 5 attacks?

Cold Wave prevents Spell and Trap Card activation, and Spell Cards from being played from hand. As long as Cold Wave has existed, Thousand-Eyes Restrict and Relinquished have been able to "equip" monsters. That much is not in dispute. What is in dispute is why the language that does not use, "negate activation" or "prevent activation", can prevent trigger-like activation's from existing effects, already active.

Fury said:
Since when can a face-down card be equipped to something?;)
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When it is a monster card being changed to a Equip Spell Card.

"Cocoon of Evolution" vs. "Imperial Order" - If "Cocoon of Evolution" is negated by "Imperial Order" while equipped to "Petit Moth," the ATK/DEF of "Petit Moth" are not changed by the effect of "Cocoon of Evolution".

So if Imperial Order can cause a "monster turned equip card" to erase a given stat, then it is possible to say that it can prevent Relinquished from "seeing" what the stats are of the monster it is equipped to as well.
 
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Part 1: A monster being equipped to Relinquished is done so by the effect of Relinquished. By game mechaninc, it becomes an Equip Spell card. The card itself, has no effect, nor is it activated. It is the effect of Relinquished that looks at the stats of the monster it has when equipped (Fusilier summoned at 1400 will be 2800 to Relinquished, see: http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=4993#4993 ). Durring none of this time does a spell card get set, or activated.

Part 2: Heavy Mech Support Unit is a Union Monster that equips itself as part of it's effect. It does not become an equip Spell card until it has resolved as an effect Monster. Then it becomes (after the fact) an equip Spell Card. So, again, no spell card has been set or activated. (Interestingly enough, the Union Monsters seem to be the only cards that ignore the rule that a monster equipped becomes a spell card without effect. Their effects, still seem to work, while equipped. See: http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=3398#3398)
 
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masterwoo0 said:
"Cocoon of Evolution" vs. "Imperial Order" - If "Cocoon of Evolution" is negated by "Imperial Order" while equipped to "Petit Moth," the ATK/DEF of "Petit Moth" are not changed by the effect of "Cocoon of Evolution".

So if Imperial Order can cause a "monster turned equip card" to erase a given stat, then it is possible to say that it can prevent Relinquished from "seeing" what the stats are of the monster it is equipped to as well.
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Irrelevant example, and wrong conclusion. The stats change comes from the effect of Cocoon of Evolution, NOT Petit Moth. I agree that with Imperial Order in play, the stats of Petit Moth would not change, but that's because the effect of the equipped Cocoon of Evolution is being negated, NOT because the ATK/DEF of Cocoon of Evolution are being negated. It's impossible to negate stats, even if you change the type of card those stats are written on.

The stats increase that Relinquished gets comes from its own effect, and since it's a Monster Card then Cold Wave would not affect it. Even Imperial Order would not negate it, because Imperial Order negates Spell Cards, not Monster Effects.


I agree with what you say about Ben Kei with his equips. 8500 ATK and 5 attacks (if the maths is correct). Cold Wave only prevents new (Spell and Trap) cards being activated or Set, and does nothing to cards that are already active.
 
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Ok, first off. This 'should' answer a few things for everybody.

http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=4721#4721

Now, to answer some questions...

To doc: Yes, you can equip in both scenarios because you are activating and resolving the effect of a monster.

In the case of "Relinquished", it will gain the ATK/DEF of the absorbed monster. The absorbed monster is nothing but a reference point for "Relinquished"s effect and will not be affected by "Cold Wave".

In the case of "Heavy Mech", I'm going to agree with woo0 on this one. I don't think the ATK increase would be active, nor would the destruction protection, since both effects are being generated by the 'equip card' itself now.

To woo0: Remember, that 'most' Equip Spell Cards have a continuous effect. And Spell/Traps with continuous effects are not 'negated' while "Cold Wave" is active.

So, "Armed Samurai - Ben Kei" WOULD indeed be at 8500 ATK and would be able to attack 5 times.



It is entirely possible that I mis-interpreted your argument woo0.


Hope this helps!
 
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That makes a lot of sense, if the effect of Heavy Mech Support Platform that gives the ATK increase does not activate until After it is equipped, then it would be an Equip Spell card at that time and subject to Cold Wave. Excellent observation. Then it would equip meaninglessly, untill Cold Wave's effect "warms up", then it would apply it's effect, right?
 
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No, Cold Wave does not negate effects. It simply doesn't allow you to manually activate a Spell or Trap Card (or effect thereof). When you equip a Union Monster, that's activating a Monster Effect, so that's fine. The stats boost will still happen.

Cold Wave will not affect Heavy Mech Support Platform at all.

From what I've read, I agree entirely with skey (except for what I just said about HMSP).
 
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To be perfectly honest, I'm not 100% on my answer about "HMSP".

My 'initial' thoughts were that the ATK boost would not be 'negated', but the destruction protection would be 'negated'. What I'm not sure about is whether or not the destruction protection is considered to be continuous or triggered.
 
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Yes, my bad again, being too hasty.
So Cold Wave doesnt negate continuous effects, only prevents the activation of activated and triggered effects.

As far as I know continuous effects dont activate, they are either on of off so I think it wouldnt negate stat boost from any king of equip spell (or an union moster that becomes and equip spell).

I think the destruction effect of HMSP is like that of Premature Burial and the like and if I'm not mistaken you cant chain to them which means they are continuous.

EDIT:
masterwoo0 said:
When it is a monster card being changed to a Equip Spell Card.
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Yeah, but a face-down card is 'just a card', (usually) you dont know if its a spell or trap nor what kind of spell or trap it is.
Hey, can you activate De-Spell agains such a face-down card? If yes, do you flip it face-up or since you already know that it's a spell you simply destroy it. In case of Sand Moth that could be important.

EDIT2:
Can you activate Bait Doll against such a face-down card?
Or is it considered to be activated already, or something...uh, that's confusing.:?
 
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Fury said:
EDIT:
Yeah, but a face-down card is 'just a card', (usually) you dont know if its a spell or trap nor what kind of spell or trap it is.
Hey, can you activate De-Spell agains such a face-down card? If yes, do you flip it face-up or since you already know that it's a spell you simply destroy it. In case of Sand Moth that could be important.
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You can activate De-Spell against a face-down (or face-up) monster in the Spell/Trap Zone. It is still treated as a S/T while it is there.
 
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Actually, De-Spell doesn't flip the card face-up. You just pick it up to check it. It's older, and mostly redundant wording. The Stern Mystic, now that's a card that flips things face-up.

And you can activate a Bait Doll to force the activation of any face-down card in the Spell/Trap Card Zones, even if you know it's a face-down Monster Card equipped to a Relinquished.
 
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