Confused on a article I read

[Tiso]

http://metagame.com/yugioh.aspx?tabid=33&ArticleId=5595

To Protect a Special Summon Effect

Ever play Return from the Different Dimensionjavascript:DisplayCard('/includes/viewcard.aspx?cid=347706')? Let's see, you have, and you have, and that other guy has too! And if you haven't, you've used Call of the Haunted, right? What do all of you hate? You hate bringing all those monsters to the field, only to lose them to Torrential Tributejavascript:DisplayCard('/includes/viewcard.aspx?cid=393150') or Bottomless Trap Holejavascript:DisplayCard('/includes/viewcard.aspx?cid=229078'), right? Sure you do. Did you know that you can avoid that with a simple chaining trick?



Here's the deal. Your opponent can only activate one of those cards when the last thing to happen was the summoning of a monster, right? Right! So take a moment to think this over. What can you do to prevent the last thing that happened in the game from being a special summon? You can chain the special summon effect to something else! How about Smashing Ground? Or your Nobleman of Crossoutjavascript:DisplayCard('/includes/viewcard.aspx?cid=460774')? First, activate an effect"”just about any effect will do, as long as it doesn't result in a summon"”and then chain your Return or Call. (Of course, your opponent has a chance to respond in between. This is very important, so don't forget it.) Your summoning effect will resolve first, followed by the first effect you activated"”which will be the last thing to happen, and therefore blocks Torrential Tribute or Bottomless Trap Holejavascript:DisplayCard('/includes/viewcard.aspx?cid=229078'). Oh, you are sneaky.


Now my question is, WHAT? Since when has this been true? I mean I know for a fact that something is fishy about this. I know for example I summon a monster, and then activate some effect my opponent will either try to negate my effect or do something about my monster or whatever. You know what I mean. Maybe it is because I got a headache right now and my brain is out for the night, but since when does activating Smashing Ground, then chaining Call of the Haunted equal safe haven from those cards?

 

[djp952]

I have to agree with you on this. I hadn't heard anything like that before and was under the impression that you could activate cards like Bottomless Trap Hole or Torrential Tribute at "the next possible opportunity". For example, up until this moment in time I assumed the following was legal:

Player A: Smashing Ground
Player B: <no chain>
Player A: chains Call of the Haunted, targets Cyber Dragon

Call of the Haunted --> Smashing Ground

[Cyber Dragon is Special Summoned, then Smashing Ground resolves destroying one of Player B's monsters.]

NOW Player B activates his set Torrential Tribute in response to the Special Summon of Cyber Dragon.

If that article is accurate, I think a lot of us have some new learnin' to do

edit: Julia is a LV3 judge after all, so it's very likely she knows a great deal of things we don't. Nobody is infallable, though.

 

[John Danker]

It's correct...look at what has happened there

Chain Link 1-Smashing Ground
Chain Link 2-RfDD

Resolve..

RfDD resolves special summoning monsters to the field
Smashing Ground resolves destroying opponent's monster

P2 wants to activate BTH or TT...but the last thing to resolve was not the summon of a monster but the resolution of Smashing Ground....the timing for BTH and TT is incorrect at this point.

 

[skey23]

Guys, seriously? You don't know about this? Or 'understand' it? :huh_jedi: Two words.....Dark World Monsters...lol

What is the timing for cards like "Torrential Tribute" and "Bottomless Trap Hole"? The last thing to have resolved in the game is a Summon or Special Summon. Using djp952's example...

Player A: "Smashing Ground"
Player B: <no chain>
Player A: chains "Call of the Haunted", targets "Cyber Dragon"
No chains added.

"Call of the Haunted" --> "Smashing Ground"

"Cyber Dragon" is Special Summoned. You can't respond with "Bottomless Trap Hole" or "Torrential Tribute" here because you're still resolving the chain.
"Smashing Ground" resolves destroying one of Player B's monsters.

Now, what is the last thing to have resolved? "Smashing Ground". So, is the timing for "Bottomless Trap Hole" or "Torrential Tribute" still valid? Nope.

Hope this helps!

P.S. You know I'm just messing with you guys right? I don't want anybody to get all huffy because of my 1st sentence...lol.

 

[Digital Jedi]

I have to agree with you on this. I hadn't heard anything like that before and was under the impression that you could activate cards like Bottomless Trap Hole or Torrential Tribute at "the next possible opportunity". For example, up until this moment in time I assumed the following was legal:

Player A: Smashing Ground
Player B: <no chain>
Player A: chains Call of the Haunted, targets Cyber Dragon

Call of the Haunted --> Smashing Ground

[Cyber Dragon is Special Summoned, then Smashing Ground resolves destroying one of Player B's monsters.]

NOW Player B activates his set Torrential Tribute in response to the Special Summon of Cyber Dragon.

If that article is accurate, I think a lot of us have some new learnin' to do

edit: Julia is a LV3 judge after all, so it's very likely she knows a great deal of things we don't. Nobody is infallable, though.

How would you be able to respond to the Special Summon of Cyber Dragon? The last thing to happen was the resolution of a Normal Spell Card, Smashing Ground, not a summon. This has always been the case. You could never respond to the Special Summon of a monster if it was summoned inbetween links of the chain. Not with Bottomless, not with Torrential, not with anything.

 

[djp952]

I'm OK with it, and frankly I think it makes more sense. That's the way I originally thought the game worked, but was convinced otherwise a LOOONG time ago. Ignorance was bliss.

This means I lost 2 duels at SJC Baltimore (and consequently 2 matches) based on illegal game play. <insert bad word> Hence my "lots of us have some new learnin' to do".

Thanks for the input gentlemen. Mucho appreciated.

edit: I am trying to track down anything I can that would indicate where my ignorance came from, though. So far .. nothing. Probably a bad habit from a former forum of mine.

 

[Digital Jedi]

I think what you guys might be thinking of is the response timing for summons. When a summon occurs, the first of the effect activated in response to the summon begins a "response chain". So everything in that chain will be in response to the summon. Hence the reason why you can activate multiple Botomless Trap Holes and Torrential Tributes. That might be what you were thinking of.

EDIT: Hey. What's wrong with the auto-linking?

 

[djp952]

I think what you guys might be thinking of is the response timing for summons. When a summon occurs, the first of the effect activated in response to the summon begins a "response chain". So everything in that chain will be in response to the summon. Hence the reason why you can activate multiple bottomless trap holes and torrential tributes. That might be what you were thinking of.

That part I knew -- my personal confusion was in extending that out beyond the initial chain with the summon into what I stated: "the next possible opportunity". <hangs head in shame and disgrace>

Oh well Learn something new every day. Next time I'll know better and won't get snookered by Bottomless Trap Holes. Watch out ya cheatin' finks! LOL.

 

[Tiso]

It just seems more confusing to think this when we know what we can do when it comes to the declaration of an attack for example in those circumstances. I had an idea of stuff liked this worked, but I was not aware it worked like this in this scenario.

 

[krazykidpsx]

I'm OK with it, and frankly I think it makes more sense. That's the way I originally thought the game worked, but was convinced otherwise a LOOONG time ago. Ignorance was bliss.

This means I lost 2 duels at SJC Baltimore (and consequently 2 matches) based on illegal game play. <insert bad word> Hence my "lots of us have some new learnin' to do".

Thanks for the input gentlemen. Mucho appreciated.

edit: I am trying to track down anything I can that would indicate where my ignorance came from, though. So far .. nothing. Probably a bad habit from a former forum of mine.

actually dj, its not just that, its the fact that you cannot interrupt a chain.

Unlike in Vs or Magic were the stack resolves a card a piece, in Yugi like we all know the entire chain resolves without stops, just BOOM all done. no its ands or buts about it.

so the thing here is that 1. it cannot interrupt a chain, and 2. by the time smashing resolves the last thing to happen was a creature getting killed not summoned or special summoned.

it has always been that way, lol XD

 

[Digital Jedi]

It just seems more confusing to think this when we know what we can do when it comes to the declaration of an attack for example in those circumstances. I had an idea of stuff liked this worked, but I was not aware it worked like this in this scenario.

I guess we are remiss for comparing the two, attacks and summons, as being essentialy the same response-wise. While they clearly have similar response timing, attacking is more akin to a resolving effect, then a summon would be. Granted, attacks have no Spell Speed and cannot be chained to, but they clearly have a "resolution" for lack of a better phrase. You can perform all kinds of actions within the attacking process after one has been declared, whereas a summon just happens. It might be time for us to stop comparing the two, or at the very least, start making that distinction more often.

 

[Tiso]

There is also the fact a lot of people do not even know what the heck is the Battle Step. The game just gets confusing all the time. Hard to keep up with changes, rules now finally made apparent, and so on. I will have to apply this to own my duel style now. Just not right now, tired.

 

[drzero7]

This sounds just like Heavy Storm + RftDD thing I asked.

 

[mikoal]

hahha wow this is funny....
i was just talking to my group of duellers and i said, ya know, to protect ur COTH summons, use a MST or smash or whatever....

man that was like 6 months ago, its a good thing that this article reminded me of it again.......

old school strats

 

[masterwoo0]

And those are the kind of things we have already been discussing for months in many of our threads that have "gone astray" several times on things like "Priority".

This is a common strategy, yet, because so many people do not allow their opponent, or vice versa, the chance to fully use their Turn Player priority, lots of things just happen too fast to take advantage of, and rather than go back and correct your opponent, most players just keep the game going.

This little "trick" is highly valuable in Return Decks against Torrential Tribute or Bottomless if you dont play with Jinzo.

 

[drzero7]

Ya know what this means? not just Smash or NoC, but anything. MST like you said, heck, I'll use Graceful Charity, Snatch Steal, Enemy Controller, etc. and chain that to CotH/RftDD.

 

[Tiso]

Well if we are going to get into this now, then I might as well get this clear.

In your scenario, you activate Snatch Steal, your opponent chains Dust Tornado to it, you activate Call of the Haunted. Chain resolves with Call summoning the monster, then Dust destroying Snatch. Does this mean the chain ends there as planned and we are now able to Torrential Tribute the summon? I only ask this as I am sure somewhere along the line I am going to be in a situational with my Water Dragon like this.

 

[masterwoo0]

Well if we are going to get into this now, then I might as well get this clear.

In your scenario, you activate Snatch Steal, your opponent chains Dust Tornado to it, you activate Call of the Haunted. Chain resolves with Call summoning the monster, then Dust destroying Snatch. Does this mean the chain ends there as planned and we are now able to Torrential Tribute the summon? I only ask this as I am sure somewhere along the line I am going to be in a situational with my Water Dragon like this.

The timing is long gone for Torrential Tribute.

 

[skey23]

Well if we are going to get into this now, then I might as well get this clear.

In your scenario, you activate Snatch Steal, your opponent chains Dust Tornado to it, you activate Call of the Haunted. Chain resolves with Call summoning the monster, then Dust destroying Snatch. Does this mean the chain ends there as planned and we are now able to Torrential Tribute the summon? I only ask this as I am sure somewhere along the line I am going to be in a situational with my Water Dragon like this.

No, because the last thing to have resolved was "Dust Tornado", not "Call of the Haunted".

 

[Tiso]

No, because the last thing to have resolved was "Dust Tornado", not "Call of the Haunted".

Ok, but reversed if my opponent does not chain and I get Call of the Haunted activated in that scenario, then he uses Dust Tornado on my Snatch Steal. It would resolve with Dust destroying the Snatch, then Call summoning. Then will those cards be used like Torrential?