Cross Counter FET-EN049

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Cross Counter FET-EN049
If the DEF of an attacked Defense Position monster is higher than the ATK of your opponent's attacking monster, the Battle Damage inflicted to your opponent is doubled. Destroy the attacking monster after damage calculation.


Stone Statue of the Aztecs AST-EN014
Any Battle Damage your opponent takes when he/she attacks this monster is doubled.

My question, both of these cards have effects that double the battle damage. So the situation i have in mind is a Fairy Box face up on the field. Opponent declares an attack on my face down Stone Statue. The I call the flip correctly reducing the monsters attack to 0. My Stone Statue is flipped face up, and activate my face down Cross Counter. I know that my opponent would take 4000 if i only have a Stone Statue, but with Cross Counter activated would my opponent take 8000 points of damage, (2000 x 2) x 2=8000.

I know cards that have similar effects only one will resolve, Fairy Meteor Crush on a Spear Dragon. Just wanted to know if anyone had any opinions on this one.
 
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novastar said:
lol, now that's clever...

Honestly, this is not about equations. If you undertstand how the effects work from a mechanical point of view, you will understand "why" they do not stack.

Continuous Effects that stack are generally the kind that actually reaction to an event occuring.

For example:

Coffin Seller
"Each time your opponent's Monster Cards are sent to the Graveyard, inflict 300 points of Direct Damage to your opponent's Life Points."

This effect stacks because both are reacting to the same event, however neither of them is actually modifying the event itself. So they stack on top of each other.

Effects such as Cross Counter and Statue are infact "modifying" the exact same event, they are continuous (resolve with no chaining) so the the Battle Damage is modified once, even though technically 2 effects are at work here.

Another decent example to use would be 2 Fairy Meteor Crush's equipped to the same monster, or 1 equipped to Spear Dragon. They are doing exactly the same thing, and modifying the same event, it essentially becomes 1 event, and Battle Damage is only inflicted once.

hope that helps
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Haha wow impressive, see datz what makez u awesome. lol :) Your examples make sense, your reasons have more rational thought and thinking to it.

chaosruler said:
I don't think that they will stack, but heck, we may even have to get a KSS on this (KSS=Konami said so), also, Strike Ninja, I love your Kinetic Soldier example (my avatar) :D

lol
-chaosruler
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lol yea, it was pulled just tuesday, but it wasn't against bLs-EoTe, it was a Marauding Captain :D !!

Kinetic Soldier is a defintite must side deck, especially with all the warrior decks running around. Also, their good side decks for Burn decks vs Warrior decks. It's only a 3 star monster too, and that's a plus.

Hmmmm... I think it's worthy for a this weekz Card Review lol, check it out soon.
 
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I'm pretty sure the effects wouldn't stack either, mostly because one is a continuous effect, and the other is temporary. Certain other cards override continuous effects by what they do. By playing Cross Counter, you've made a new effect happen, which may or may not override the continuous effect. Usually when the effect is the same on more than one card, they don't tend to overlap each other, unless it's a /direct/ modifier. Two Wabokus won't protect you more than one will.

This may not be the best example, but look at what happens if you equip Ben Kai with Tryce. Even if he gets equipped with something else, the Text on Tryce overrules his own, only giving him two attacks, instead of adding yet another one to what he could do.

Having two Megamorphs on the same creature also doesn't quadruple the damage, it still just doubles or halves it.
 
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novastar said:
Effects such as Cross Counter and Statue are infact "modifying" the exact same event, they are continuous (resolve with no chaining) so the the Battle Damage is modified once, even though technically 2 effects are at work here.
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totally agree with this. they resolve with no chaining. so it cant be like B x 2 = C x 2 = D from digital jedi. B x 2 and C x 2 both happen at the same time, not one after another. therefore they do not stack. I can totally see your point, but think of it as there r 2 imperial orders face up on the field. If a player activate a magic card, both I/O's effect will go off at the same time. They will not create a chian.

Its a good debate, not trying to argue with anyone here, just trying to play the game to the best knowledge.
 
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I can totally see your point, but think of it as there r 2 imperial orders face up on the field. If a player activate a magic card, both I/O's effect will go off at the same time. They will not create a chian.
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Exactly... now you are seeing it...:)

Haha wow impressive, see datz what makez u awesome. lol Your examples make sense, your reasons have more rational thought and thinking to it.
Click to expand...

To be honest... there are a lot of great YGO people i've met over the past 3 some odd years.

They taught me everything i know.
 
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Cross Counter sets up a condition so if we're limited to choosing we must use it's effect since it's effect is non-optional and from Last Will's rulings we find that:
You don't select a monster as a target when you activate or resolve "Last Will". "Last Will" creates a state whereby, the next time during that turn when your monster is sent from your side of the field to your Graveyard, you may Special Summon 1 monster from your Deck using "Last Will's" state. "Last Will's" state then ends.

so we could expect that the ruling for Cross Counter would be:
You don't select a monster as a target when you activate or resolve "Cross Counter". "Cross Counter" creates a state whereby, the next time during that damage step when your opponent's monster attacks with a lower attack than the defence of your defence position monster the Battle Damage inflicted to your opponent is doubled by "Cross Counter's" state. Destroy the attacking monster after damage calculation. "Cross Counter's" state then ends.


As to if the two can chain I'd have to agree that they probably can't, otherwise with Stone Statue's effect being continuous and so continuously checking what the Battle Damage is (like all continous effects which change the outcome dependent on an external influence, e.g. Agent of Force Mars, Gren Maju Da Eiza, etc...), since it's own effect leaves the outcome as Battle Damage you'd just have an infinite loop! And so we must assume that it doesn't infact constantly scan and update and so would be completely ignorent of Cross Counter's effect and so only double the original Battle Damage.
So change me to a "no" please.
 
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It's time for another one of Blaze's illogical logics of confusion. Basically, this is what I think. Let's see here; we have:

Thinger A.

Stone Statue of the Aztecs
-----------------------------
Attrib: Earth
Type: Rock/Effect
Level:4
Atk: 300
Def: 2000
Any Battle Damage your opponent takes when he/she attacks this monster is doubled

Rulings:
The Battle Damage doubled by "Stone Statue of the Aztecs"' effect is still considered Battle Damage (not effect damage).

If "Rod of the Mind's Eye" is equipped to "Stone Statue of the Aztecs", the Battle Damage will be 1000.

The Battle Damage is doubled during damage calculation.

When "Amazoness Swordswoman" (1500 ATK) attacks "Stone Statue of the Aztecs" (2000 DEF), the controller of Stone Statue of the Aztecs takes 1000 Battle Damage.


Thinger B.

Cross Counter
--------------------
Group: Trap Card
Type: Trap
If the DEF of an attacked Defense Position monster is higher than the ATK of your opponent's attacking monster, the Battle Damage inflicted to your opponent is doubled. Destroy the attacking monster after damage calculation.

Rulings:
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]You activate "Cross Counter" before damage calculation but after flipping the attacked monster face-up. The "Cross Counter" card is sent to the Graveyard after resolving its effect and destroying the attacking monster.

The effect of "Cross Counter" only applies to the one attack and does not continue for the rest of the turn.

If your opponent's "Amazoness Swords Woman" attacks your Defense Position "Mystical Elf", and you activate "Cross Counter", you (the controller of "Cross Counter" and "Mystical Elf") take 1000 points of damage due to the effect of "Amazoness Swords Woman", and then "Cross Counter" destroys "Amazoness Swords Woman".

"Cross Counter" is not an effect that targets.

The effect of "Cross Counter" that destroys a monster does not start a chain.
[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]-------------------------------[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Well, now time for some fun.[/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Let's use something simple; Sangan vs Aztec. 1000 Atk vs 2000 Def
[/font]
Battle Phase:
Sangan attacks Face Down

Card is flipped, Aztec
Trap Activated: Cross Counter

-------------------
Sangan smacks Aztec, Aztec laughs and watch it hurt itself REAL bad.
1000 x 2 (Battle Damage. Not Effect Damage)
Cross Counter has been activated on the opposing monster; According to the ruling's statement:You activate "Cross Counter" before damage calculation but after flipping the attacked monster face-up.

So being said that the trap card is not a continues effect, it applies to the battle damage; not the attack. And it does not state "original battle damage" because quite frankly, there is really no such thing in this situation.

So, since the battle damage done to Sangan, and this battle damage of 2000 is NOT an effect. The actual effect is then applied to the battle damage, thus doubling it to 4000.

-------------------------------------
It actually makes sense, especially when between the cards; one is an effect and the other isnt but a normal of an effect. The key here is that n the rulings, Aztec's "effect" is there and causes double the damage. However, the damage is not considered effect damage but normal battle damage; and thus from there Cross Counter inflict onto the battle damage aztec has sent.


What seems to be the issue here is one side sees it as how I do and the other sees it this way;

Cross Counter is activated after Aztec is flipped but before Damage Calculation.
So Counter's effect activates at the same time as Aztec; thus nulling out any more modification than it should.

----------------------------------------

However; the case here shows that Cross Counter is flipped after Aztec was flipped; thus Cross Counter should chain to Aztec's effect. Thus Aztec's effect does the double damage and considers the damage a non effect and Cross Counter doubles the battle damage and thus makes it an effect.



And thats all from the mind of Blaze. Gotta love complications! =D

Edit:
Now if Cross Counter was flipped before Aztec was flipped, then I would thinkt he effects work under the same instance and thats when the nulling comes in and the people gettin pissed off at each other with the throwing and the punching and cursing begins.

Just make sure to chain Cross to the effect after flip before damage calculation.

Causs Cross Counter is activated BEFORE damage calculation but it seems to work ON Damage Calculation.
La! =D
 
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Another note before the bashing, that this is a debate and this is just my personal opinion how I see it. If it's resolves in another fashion, I think it's upto Konami to verify and state this fact to settle it once and for all. Or an official judge to look at this thread go "Damn son, this makin' my head hurt! uh...do this and that, pop me some asperin and let's call it a day."

Then little Jimmy would reply:
"But..but...good sir!"

Judge: "Shuddap Jimmy" -tosses a boot at him-
 
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Additional note: uh, this may be old but it appeared new in my new messages box and I thought it was interesting so I decided to post, please excuse me.
 
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Blaze said:
Additional note: uh, this may be old but it appeared new in my new messages box and I thought it was interesting so I decided to post, please excuse me.
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Oh it's an old thread alright, but recently ressurected so no need for apologese. I agree however and think the ultimate decision might end up being B.K.S.S simply because I thnk both arguments have some validity.
 
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Well... I tried reading this thread... man its long... um... can someone just summarize if Cross Counter (Single or Multiples)+Stone Statue gives a *4 or a *2 modifier (since I understand the card to say... Set Multiplyer to *2... as apposed to Limiter Remover which has the effect of... Double the Current Modifyer (*1 becomes *2 becomes *4 and such)... as far as I can tell
 
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What is so difficult about this?

Both effects have overlapping continuous effects that apply to Battle Damage, so they effectively become the same event.

Ther Battle Damage is doubled once.
 
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novastar said:
What is so difficult about this?

Both effects have overlapping continuous effects that apply to Battle Damage, so they effectively become the same event.

Ther Battle Damage is doubled once.
Click to expand...

Well, the fact is...Cross Counter is not a contious effect. However, Aztec is. But Aztec's effect can be chained to with Cross Counter. So that the normal double battle damage effect is considered NON-EFFECT Battle Damage. So think of it as Normal battle damage, just double than it should be. And Cross Counter chains to the effect, doubling the NORMAL Battle Damage WHICH is double to double that, as an effect damage rather than normal damage. Did you just skip over every detail I have stated in my post?

How can it chain? I'll repeat it one more time.

Sangan attacks Aztec, 1000 Atk -> 2000 Def
Aztec is then flipped, his effect activated.
Cross Counter then Chained to his effect.
Resolve-> Battle Damage 1000 is converted 2000 NORMAL damage.
Rosolve-> Cross Counter takes NORMAL damage would be result and turns it into 4000 EFFECT damage and destroys the monster.

Thats exactly how it should work. Because Cross Counter doesnt target the monster when it comes to the damage part, it targets the resolve of the damage outcome and doubles it. Then it targets the attacking monster and bitch slaps it to hell. But since it targets the monster to destroy, the card's effect has to be activated before damage calculation.

Just because it was activated BEFORE damage calculation DOESNT mean that the effect doesn't happen IN Damage Calculation, because the card was made TO modify the damage calculation in the first place.

Badda bing, badda boom. La =D

But of course, BOTH sides can be validated, the only way this can be settled is what Konami would have to say. I see it being that it can stack.

And NO one dare bring up that Morph card thinger; cause it doubles original attack. So OF COURSE it wont stack if you put 2, it says so on the card. Sheesh.
 
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Heheheh, I missed this thread. :)

I'll say that I never considered the two effects as chaining. I always just considered one effect happening first and one happening second. The turn player deciding which one would go off first (like it mattered.) Effect Damage was not even a consideration in my mind. It was the fact that it said Battle Damage that made me feel like one should double the other.
 
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DaGuyWitBluGlasses said:
You may not chain to a continuous effect of a monster. Also read the text of Cross Counter, and you'll see clearly that it is activated before damage calculation
Click to expand...

Ok, but even if you flip before damage calculation, cross still effects the battle damage of the outcome, as clearly stated. It doubles, in order for it to double, the damage needs to be calculated in the process. So if Aztec doubles the battle damage and not consider it as an effect, then the "improved" battle damage would appear and Cross Counter would effect that.

The way I think Aztec is supposed to work, is that instead of the impact of a fist ramming into a solid wall, you have your same fist ramming into a spike. A spike is no magical effect, is standard law of nature. You thrust flesh into a sharp object, you're going to get impaled.

If Konami would have NEVER stated that the aztec damage is NOT normal battle damage, then YES; I would completely agree that Cross Counter would null but since they did say thats its considere normal battle damage, then Cross Counter SHOULD take into effect. since Cross Counter takes the BATTLE DAMAGE and doubles that.

That's all Im saying.
 
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Blaze said:
Ok, but even if you flip before damage calculation, cross still effects the battle damage of the outcome, as clearly stated. It doubles, in order for it to double, the damage needs to be calculated in the process. So if Aztec doubles the battle damage and not consider it as an effect, then the "improved" battle damage would appear and Cross Counter would effect that.

The way I think Aztec is supposed to work, is that instead of the impact of a fist ramming into a solid wall, you have your same fist ramming into a spike. A spike is no magical effect, is standard law of nature. You thrust flesh into a sharp object, you're going to get impaled.

If Konami would have NEVER stated that the aztec damage is NOT normal battle damage, then YES; I would completely agree that Cross Counter would null but since they did say thats its considere normal battle damage, then Cross Counter SHOULD take into effect. since Cross Counter takes the BATTLE DAMAGE and doubles that.

That's all Im saying.
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Think of it this way, Cross Counter doubles the damage to 2x, Stone Statue, if it were to continuously check what the currently due Battle damage is, would now double this to 4x, but this is still treated as Battle Damage and so now gets doubled to 8x, etc....
Stone Statue will only reference the original Battle Damage and since Cross Counter cannot chain to Stone Statue (a continous effect) the most you can get is 2x as neither can reference the other's output.
 
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Blaze said:
Ok, but even if you flip before damage calculation, cross still effects the battle damage of the outcome, as clearly stated. It doubles, in order for it to double, the damage needs to be calculated in the process. So if Aztec doubles the battle damage and not consider it as an effect, then the "improved" battle damage would appear and Cross Counter would effect that.
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Both double the damage after it has been calculated.

The way I think Aztec is supposed to work, is that instead of the impact of a fist ramming into a solid wall, you have your same fist ramming into a spike. A spike is no magical effect, is standard law of nature. You thrust flesh into a sharp object, you're going to get impaled.
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Physics has no place in this game. This game has nothing to do with physics. Or seeing battle in real life. It's just cards.

If Konami would have NEVER stated that the aztec damage is NOT normal battle damage, then YES; I would completely agree that Cross Counter would null but since they did say thats its considere normal battle damage, then Cross Counter SHOULD take into effect. since Cross Counter takes the BATTLE DAMAGE and doubles that.

That's all Im saying.
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Both effects try to double the calculated damage i.e the difference between the attack an defense. Once one card modifies taht number it becomes the amount the amount to be applied to the player's life points, the other card doesn't double that amount, it doubles the calculated damage.
 
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