Divine Wrath vs. Makyura the Destructor

[benearn919]

I am wondering when is the correct time to activate Divine Wrath to negate the effect of Makyura. Is it when Makyura is sent to the graveyard and creates the condition of being able to use trap cards from the hand? Or is it when the trap cards are activated from the hand?

I believe it is the former case but I would like some clarification.

Thanks in advance.

 

[densetsu_x]

It would be the former (when he is sent to the graveyard) UNLESS they decide to classify his effect as a Continuous Effect and not a Trigger Effect. But as far as I know it is a Trigger Effect.

 

[Osiris]

It would be the former (when he is sent to the graveyard) UNLESS they decide to classify his effect as a Continuous Effect and not a Trigger Effect.  But as far as I know it is a Trigger Effect.

He's a Trigger Effect... best way to determine Continuous effect is the card text states "As long as this card"...

Example #1: Jinzo
As long as this card remains face-up on the field, Trap Cards cannot be activated. The effects of all face-up Trap Cards are negated.

Example #2: Marie the Fallen One
As long as this card is in the Graveyard, increase your Life Points by 200 points during each of your Standby Phases.

 

[densetsu_x]

Eh, "Marie the Fallen One" is considered a Trigger effect if I'm not mistaken since you can chain "Divine Wrath" to her... but I don't want to get into that debate so I think I'll never say it.

 

[woltarr]

ha!!!

so sinister serpent is also a contiunous effct

and so does hellpoemer

so why bishop ruled them as triguer effct making divine wrath able to activate in response to the activation of their effcts?

woltarr

 

[Osiris]

ha!!!

so sinister serpent is also a contiunous effct

and so does hellpoemer

so why bishop ruled them as triguer effct making divine wrath able to activate in response to the activation of their effcts?

woltarr

Well lets analyse the text of the 2 cards, shall we??

Sinister Serpent
Effect Monster (Reptile / WATER / 1 Star / ATK 300 / DEF 250)
During your Standby Phase, if a "Sinister Serpent" exists in your Graveyard, you can return the "Sinister Serpent" to your hand.

Helpoemer
Effect Monster (Fiend / DARK / 5 Stars / ATK 2000 / DEF 1400)
When this card has been sent to the Graveyard as a result of battle, this card's effect is activated. As long as this card exists in the Graveyard, your opponent discards 1 card randomly from his/her hand at the end of his/her Battle Phase. Neither player can Special Summon this card from the Graveyard.


Sinister serpent makes no mention of "As long as this card" in its card text and on top of that it's an effect that activates during the Standy Phase (as stated in the card text) and Helpoemer specifically states "this card's effect is activated" in its card text...

 

[woltarr]

ha!!!

so sinister serpent is also a contiunous effct

and so does hellpoemer

so why bishop ruled them as triguer effct making divine wrath able to activate in response to the activation of their effcts?

woltarr

Well lets analyse the text of the 2 cards, shall we??

Sinister Serpent
Effect Monster (Reptile / WATER / 1 Star / ATK 300 / DEF 250)
During your Standby Phase, if a "Sinister Serpent" exists in your Graveyard, you can return the "Sinister Serpent" to your hand.

Helpoemer
Effect Monster (Fiend / DARK / 5 Stars / ATK 2000 / DEF 1400)
When this card has been sent to the Graveyard as a result of battle, this card's effect is activated. As long as this card exists in the Graveyard, your opponent discards 1 card randomly from his/her hand at the end of his/her Battle Phase. Neither player can Special Summon this card from the Graveyard.


Sinister serpent makes no mention of "As long as this card" in its card text and on top of that it's an effect that activates during the Standy Phase (as stated in the card text) and Helpoemer specifically states "this card's effect is activated" in its card text...

but look

Helpoemer
Effect Monster (Fiend / DARK / 5 Stars / ATK 2000 / DEF 1400)
When this card has been sent to the Graveyard as a result of battle, this card's effect is activated. As long as this card exists in the Graveyard, your opponent discards 1 card randomly from his/her hand at the end of his/her Battle Phase. Neither player can Special Summon this card from the Graveyard

the bold part shows the magic words

woltarr

 

[masterwoo0]

Helpoemer may have the magical words, but think of it in terms of driving a car.  A car may run continuously (as long as it has gas), but it has to be started first, right?! 

Helpoemer's effect will only "trigger" if it is sent to the Graveyard as a result of Battle.  So, it sounds like once the trigger event occurs, then it can be negated, just as if it was sent to the Graveyard after being destroyed by Dark Ruler Ha Des.

EDIT: Also, remember that there are different ways for cards to be sent to the Graveyard.  Painful Choice, Dark Hole, Raigeki, Zaborg the Thunder Monarch, Card Destruction, etc.,...

So its effect is not continuous based upon it being in the Graveyard.  Its only continuous if destroyed as a result of Battle AND its effect not being negated.

 

[Osiris]

but look

Helpoemer
Effect Monster (Fiend / DARK / 5 Stars / ATK 2000 / DEF 1400)
When this card has been sent to the Graveyard as a result of battle, this card's effect is activated. As long as this card exists in the Graveyard, your opponent discards 1 card randomly from his/her hand at the end of his/her Battle Phase. Neither player can Special Summon this card from the Graveyard

the bold part shows the magic words

woltarr

True. But it also contains the words "this card's effect is activated". I suppose we (I??) could call it a multi-type card in that once the activated effect has resolved it becomes a Continuous Effect. Simply put, there are always exceptions to the rule... I was merely trying to make it easier to determine what a Continuous Effect is... thanks for making it look like a useless method of doing so... all things will have an exception somewhere along the lines... so I guess I'll have to change my original statement JUST so it's more accurate and to appease those who like to have everything pointed out to them in black and white and no use their brains once in a while...

The best way to determine Continuous effect is the card text USUALLY states "As long as this card"... 1 obvious exception to that rule are if the card also states something about an activated effect, (example text: "this card's effect is activated")...

Are we happy now I've painted the pretty picture for you, woltarr??

 

[woltarr]

but look

Helpoemer
Effect Monster (Fiend / DARK / 5 Stars / ATK 2000 / DEF 1400)
When this card has been sent to the Graveyard as a result of battle, this card's effect is activated. As long as this card exists in the Graveyard, your opponent discards 1 card randomly from his/her hand at the end of his/her Battle Phase. Neither player can Special Summon this card from the Graveyard

the bold part shows the magic words

woltarr

True. But it also contains the words "this card's effect is activated". I suppose we (I??) could call it a multi-type card in that once the activated effect has resolved it becomes a Continuous Effect. Simply put, there are always exceptions to the rule... I was merely trying to make it easier to determine what a Continuous Effect is... thanks for making it look like a useless method of doing so... all things will have an exception somewhere along the lines... so I guess I'll have to change my original statement JUST so it's more accurate and to appease those who like to have everything pointed out to them in black and white and no use their brains once in a while...

The best way to determine Continuous effect is the card text USUALLY states "As long as this card"... 1 obvious exception to that rule are if the card also states something about an activated effect, (example text: "this card's effect is activated")...

Are we happy now I've painted the pretty picture for you, woltarr??

hahahahah come on man

dont get mad with me

it is nobody fault

the real problem is that YGO seems to have more exceptions than rules

i also could pinpoint a certain lack of conformity is the way the texts of the cards are made , obligating a constant review of them as seen in graverobber for example

may we agree that divine wrath could be activated in response to the activation of hellpoemer efct being sent to a grave as a result of batlle

but not when hellpoemer force oponent to discard a card in his batlle phase because now it is a continuous effct?

also, may we agree that sinister serpent DO need a review in its text to inclue the part " as long as this card exist ...." to make it become a continuous efct and finish the discussions about this matter?

woltarr

 

[Osiris]

hahahahah come on man

dont get mad with me

it is nobody fault

the real problem is that YGO seems to have more exceptions than rules

i also could pinpoint a certain lack of conformity is the way the texts of the cards are made , obligating a constant review of them as seen in graverobber for example

may we agree that divine wrath could be activated in response to the activation of hellpoemer efct being sent to a grave as a result of batlle

but not when hellpoemer force oponent to discard a card in his batlle phase because now it is a continuous effct?

also, may we agree that sinister serpent DO need a review in its text to inclue the part " as long as this card exist ...." to make it become a continuous efct and finish the discussions about this matter?

woltarr

Agree on Helpoemer: I never disagreed...
Sinister Serpent I won't agree on, it is a trigger effect.

I'm also working on an article about Divine Wrath and when it can and can't be activated at the moment, so we'll see how that goes..