Does Negate Attack Target, and Questions About Other Cards

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cameron2010

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Does Negate Attack target?

Why are the Egyptian God cards in Nightmare Troubadour able to stop Negate Attack?

If a Tyrant Dragon is selected for the effect of Double Attack, and the appropriate conditions for Tyrant's first effect are satisfied, will Tyrant Dragon be able to attack four times?

If a Burst Stream of Destruction destroys Dark Eradicator Warlock, will Eradicator still have its effect?

If a Mystical Space Typhoon destroys my opponent's Spell Absorption, does my opponent still gain life?
 
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I can't agree more with respect to the Curse of Darkness ruling being erroneous.

Conversely, an effect such as Graverobber inflicts damage on the activation side as well... but it does so as if it were a cost. In otherwords, during the activation process, not afterwords like Curse of Darkness.

I don't complete agree with the time reversal logic, as negation has been presented as a preventative action, not a cure for something that has already occured.

YGO is one of the only games i have seen that allows for actual activation negation, which creates this complication. Waiting until after a resolution unfortunately, makes no sense verbally, but makes alot more sense mechanically.
 
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novastar said:
I can't agree more with respect to the Curse of Darkness ruling being erroneous.
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Agreed.


novastar said:
I don't complete agree with the time reversal logic, as negation has been presented as a preventative action, not a cure for something that has already occured.

YGO is one of the only games i have seen that allows for actual activation negation, which creates this complication. Waiting until after a resolution unfortunately, makes no sense verbally, but makes alot more sense mechanically.
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Again, agreed. I'm also still convinced that negating the activation and effect of a card does NOT also destroy the Chain Link that card was on. Because that would change the number of card links in said chain, which I'm sure is impossible in the first place.
 
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Maruno said:
I'm also still convinced that negating the activation and effect of a card does NOT also destroy the Chain Link that card was on. Because that would change the number of card links in said chain, which I'm sure is impossible in the first place.
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I'm with you also. Just because the card is negated, doesn't make it return to hand or leave the field. It is still present to be accounted for in the chain.
 
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Maruno said:
I'm also still convinced that negating the activation and effect of a card does NOT also destroy the Chain Link that card was on. Because that would change the number of card links in said chain, which I'm sure is impossible in the first place.
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Well another debate, for a different thread... this can be a matter of perception as well. Removing a Chain Link is very possible, in this game as well as others, if you can add one, you can take one away.

Just as resolution can "dissappear" from say lack of target, so to can activation dissappear. Of course there is nothing concrete to support it.

However, i'm guessing that we are on the same page, that negating the activation does not reverse time, as there are definate remnants of that activation such as costs paid and the cards used.

All negating activation and resolution does is prevent them from occuring (this is supported by UDE's own official definition of negation).

I think we've pretty much exhausted this discussion, lets hope they add a ruling for Dark Eradicator eventually.
 
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Great news, I just called UDE (about 20 minutes ago) by their customer service line (1-800-873-7332). This number is listed on the back of many of the starter and structure decks. Sometimes I call because, many e-mails sent to UDE Game Play by myself, siblings, and friends had no reply. As usual I asked for a gameplay representative. Instead I was sent to a Judge named Nick. I asked some gameplay questions one of them being this.

If I play a Burst Stream of Destruction while Dark Eradicator is on the field, will Dark Eradicator get its effect?
No

Does the same ruling for Rapid-Fire Magician apply to Curse of Darkness, and any other ability that activates when a Spell card is played?
Yes

This would thus mean that in order for a spell card to have a sucessful activation, it would have to resolve. After speaking to him about Magic Jammer, it made sense. Since Magic Jammer negates the activation of a Spell Card, there would be no resolution of the Spell Card.

I also asked Nick the best way to explain this if I were in a tournament setting. He basically told me to show them the ruling for Rapid-Fire Magician.

Therefore, for an ability like Rapid-Fire Magician, Dark Eradicator Warlock to work it would have to be on the field, and the Spell Card would need to resolve to have a suscessful activation of the Normal Spell Card. This is why Magic Jammer would negate the activation of the Spell Card, and it would never resolve.

Thanks for all the replies!
 
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cameron2010 said:
If I play a Burst Stream of Destruction while Dark Eradicator is on the field, will Dark Eradicator get its effect?
No
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Did you specify that you had the Dark Eradicator Warlock, not your opponent? Because I'm not sure if it being destroyed by the Burst Stream of Destruction would affect its effect. I'm pretty sure it wouldn't, though; in which case that your guy said was wrong.

cameron2010 said:
Does the same ruling for Rapid-Fire Magician apply to Curse of Darkness, and any other ability that activates when a Spell card is played?
Yes
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Rapid-Fire Magician says do the damage at resolution. Curse of Darkness says do the damage at activation. Different rulings, therefore not the same ruling. Your guy's wrong again, unless he's planning a secret update while we're not looking.

cameron2010 said:
This would thus mean that in order for a spell card to have a sucessful activation, it would have to resolve. After speaking to him about Magic Jammer, it made sense. Since Magic Jammer negates the activation of a Spell Card, there would be no resolution of the Spell Card.
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Ehhh... Possibly. It certainly makes sense to wait until resolution to inflict damage, because at that point the activation cannot be negated (i.e. past the point of Magic Jammer-time. It can't touch this. Sorry about that), and it's certain the activation happened.

This issue isn't clear anyway, which is why we're debating it.

Your guy hasn't actually said anything relevant/meaningful/practically correct. All he's done is give two wrong rulings and the fact that things can't resolve if they're not activated (which I should hope everyone knows anyway).

For these reasons, I would tend not to pay too much, if any, attention to this response. But that's just me.
 
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Maruno said:
Did you specify that you had the Dark Eradicator Warlock, not your opponent? Because I'm not sure if it being destroyed by the Burst Stream of Destruction would affect its effect. I'm pretty sure it wouldn't, though; in which case that your guy said was wrong.

Rapid-Fire Magician says do the damage at resolution. Curse of Darkness says do the damage at activation. Different rulings, therefore not the same ruling. Your guy's wrong again, unless he's planning a secret update while we're not looking.

Ehhh... Possibly. It certainly makes sense to wait until resolution to inflict damage, because at that point the activation cannot be negated (i.e. past the point of Magic Jammer-time. It can't touch this. Sorry about that), and it's certain the activation happened.

This issue isn't clear anyway, which is why we're debating it.

Your guy hasn't actually said anything relevant/meaningful/practically correct. All he's done is give two wrong rulings and the fact that things can't resolve if they're not activated (which I should hope everyone knows anyway).

For these reasons, I would tend not to pay too much, if any, attention to this response. But that's just me.
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Of course I specified that Dark Eradicator was on my opponent's side of the field, because I am obviously trying to destroy it. In addition, this entire thread started based on a duel that I had with a family member of mine. He had Dark Eradicator Warlock, and I played Burst Stream of Destruction. And so the rest is history.

Well you can take in anyway you want. The 800 number is on the back of most Yugioh merchandise. If you want you can call them yourself. This number sends you to the Gameplay Representative Dept. of UDE. Normally I would have been on the phone with a regular game play reps Eric Tice or Javier Casillas. I think on of them has an e-mail with Metagame.com or has sent a post on City of Gamers in the past.

Also you can also send the representatives an e-mail at entertainment@upperdeck.com, or search the UDE Forums, and Judges List.
 
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I think the key thing we all need to remember is that even though we all have our own opinions, in the long run they are insignificant. In addition, I did not anticipate lightning such a fire with a few rules questions. The key to Yugioh is for everyone to play and have fun. Shonen Jump Philly here I come!
 
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cameron2010 said:
Great news, I just called UDE (about 20 minutes ago) by their customer service line (1-800-873-7332). This number is listed on the back of many of the starter and structure decks. Sometimes I call because, many e-mails sent to UDE Game Play by myself, siblings, and friends had no reply. As usual I asked for a gameplay representative. Instead I was sent to a Judge named Nick. I asked some gameplay questions one of them being this.

If I play a Burst Stream of Destruction while Dark Eradicator is on the field, will Dark Eradicator get its effect?
No

Does the same ruling for Rapid-Fire Magician apply to Curse of Darkness, and any other ability that activates when a Spell card is played?
Yes

This would thus mean that in order for a spell card to have a sucessful activation, it would have to resolve. After speaking to him about Magic Jammer, it made sense. Since Magic Jammer negates the activation of a Spell Card, there would be no resolution of the Spell Card.

I also asked Nick the best way to explain this if I were in a tournament setting. He basically told me to show them the ruling for Rapid-Fire Magician.

Therefore, for an ability like Rapid-Fire Magician, Dark Eradicator Warlock to work it would have to be on the field, and the Spell Card would need to resolve to have a suscessful activation of the Normal Spell Card. This is why Magic Jammer would negate the activation of the Spell Card, and it would never resolve.

Thanks for all the replies!
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I believe you are inferring too much from your conversation with Nick. Spell cards do not need to RESOLVE to have a successful ACTIVATION. Reference the rulings with "Tower of Babel". "Imperial Order" can negate the resolution, or if the Spell Card was a Continuous, Equip, or Field Spell Card, and "Dust Tornado" is chained to its activation and destroys it before it resolves you still place a Spell Counter because the activation of the card was not negated.


Cards such as "Magic Jammer" and "Magic Drain" negate the activation of the Spell card and thus the Spell card's effect never occurs.


Certain continuous effects are "enabled" when a Spell card is activated, but the effect is not applied until the Spell card resolves. (I'm using the term "enabled" as opposed to "triggered" because these continuous effects do NOT go on chain). "Dark Eradicator Warlock", "Rapid-Fire Magician" and "Tower of Babel" do not apply their effects until the Spell card has resolved.


"Curse of Darkness" has specific rulings that state it applies its effect immediately after a Spell card activates and BEFORE it resolves. Until these rulings are revised or changed, I would continue to rule as such.


doc
 
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I believe you are inferring too much from your conversation with Nick. Spell cards do not need to RESOLVE to have a successful ACTIVATION. Reference the rulings with "Tower of Babel". "Imperial Order" can negate the resolution, or if the Spell Card was a Continuous, Equip, or Field Spell Card, and "Dust Tornado" is chained to its activation and destroys it before it resolves you still place a Spell Counter because the activation of the card was not negated.
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A negated resolution is still technically a resolution, just a nullified one.

The whole idea of negating activation is YGO creates a lot of confusion mechanically (at least in my mind anyway). It implies that activation can be unsuccessful, and that you must arrive at the chain link during the resolution side of the chain in order to be successful.
 
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Technically, though, is resolution ever negated (in any situation)? The effect could be (as could activation), but the resolution still continues regardless. There just isn't an effect to resolve, though.
 
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Maruno said:
Technically, though, is resolution ever negated (in any situation)? The effect could be (as could activation), but the resolution still continues regardless. There just isn't an effect to resolve, though.
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Here's what UDE says about resolution in certain circumstances: If you chain against a Continuous or Equip Spell Card, or a Continuous Trap Card, with "Mystical Space Typhoon" (or "Dust Tornado"), the Continuous/Equip Card is no longer active because it is destroyed, and the effect does not resolve and disappears.

doc
 
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