Face-Down Monster cards

A

Azatoth

New Member
A debate started here:

http://www.igforums.com/showthread.php?p=53806

It's partly about me not understanding why face-down monster cards do have effects at all, as they should be without Type, Attribute and effect in my opinion.

So how can you tribute a face-down Kaibaman or The Creator Incarnate for a BEWD or Creator? Why can you send a face-down Beast-Type monster to the graveyard for Manticore of Darkness' effect, as they should not have a type at all (as far as I know and believe).

So can anyone explain why you should be able to use The Creator Incarnate's effect while face-down to tribute him and summon The Creator from your hand in particular, and how face-down monster cards are treated regarding Type, Attribute, Level and Effect in general?

Thanks.
 
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Hey it's ok, chaosruler, I enjoy my brain being fried like chicken. It's hard to swallow at times, like me when it came down to Horn of Heaven Vs Monster Reborn and effects alike.

Players cannot just tribute Kaibaman like that unless you can fully resolve the effect by Special Summon Blue-Eyes White Dragon from your hand. If you do not control 1 while in your hand, you cannot tribute Kaibaman.
 
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The best I can come up with is that they really weren't ignition effects but continuous effects and that if you tribute it it becomes face-up in your graveyard at which point the tribute condition has been met and you can go ahead with what you were doing since the tribute occurs before the summon... and yeah yeah I know I sounds so bass-ackwards but that's about the best I could come up with.
 
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densetsu_x said:
The best I can come up with is that they really weren't ignition effects but continuous effects and that if you tribute it it becomes face-up in your graveyard at which point the tribute condition has been met and you can go ahead with what you were doing since the tribute occurs before the summon... and yeah yeah I know I sounds so bass-ackwards but that's about the best I could come up with.
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AGreed. It's sounding like a continuous effect by rulings nature.

Has anyone actually CONFIRMED that it can be Divine Wrath'd?

Just sent to the Judge list:
For reference, card effects are at the end of the message.

It is a ruling in the FAQ that Red-Eyes B. Chick can be chained by Divine Wrath, because it is an Ignition effect. It is also part of its effect that it must be face-up to activate its effect. (FAQ: "Divine Wrath")

However, The Creator Incarnate can be tributed while face-down to summon its related monster (FAQ: "The Creator"). We can imply from the nearly-identical card text that Kaibaman is the same. The part which brings up conflict is the fact that no Ignition effect, to date, can be activated while the monster is face-down.

Additionally, Double Coston and similar cards can be tributed face-down (I don't know where I got that, but it's in my head). Double Coston is a continuous effect (FAQ: Divine Wrath). It seems, in the sense that both can be tributed for their effects while face-down, Double Coston implies The Creator Incarnate and Kaibaman both as continuous effects.

Is this actually the case? Can Divine Wrath be used in a chain with Kaibaman's effect?

Kaibaman (Monster): Tribute this card to Special Summon 1 "Blue-Eyes White Dragon" from your hand.

The Creator Incarnate (Monster): Tribute this card to Special Summon 1 "The Creator" from your hand.

Red-Eyes B. Chick (Monster): Send this face-up card on your side of the field to the Graveyard to Special Summon 1 "Red-Eyes B. Dragon" from your hand.

Double Coston (Monster): If you Tribute Summon a DARK monster, you can treat this 1 monster as 2 Tribute Monsters for the Tribute Summon.

Divine Wrath (Counter Trap): Discard 1 card from your hand. Negate the activation and the effect of an Effect Monster and destroy the monster.
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How the heck am I failing from being unable to write?
 
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You can Divine Wrath effects that Special Summons monsters such as Red-Eyes B. Chick, Kaibaman, Paladin of White Dragon, etc, as tributing is part of their effect to Special Summon some monster.

But not the effects of Kaiser Sea Horse, Double Coston, Flame Ruler, etc. as thier effects are Continuous Effects.
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Red-Eyes B. Chick
Yes, I know. I actually referenced that.

Kaibaman
You have no proof. I believe differently.

Paladin of White Dragon
Yes, that's in the Divine Wrath rulings.

Kaiser Sea Horse
Double Coston
Flame Ruler
Yes, I know, but you have no proof.

So thanks for wasting my time with things I already knew, things that were already pointed out, and things that have no basis in actual official rulings.

Edit: And don't forget the answer to a question noone asked. And wasting bandwidth. All to increase a single point of postcount.
 
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Hey, my bad I don't mean to place messages just so I could get more stars or have some new title, it aint my intention either, but you dont have to put me on the spot like that.

I find that **** disrespectful

I've sent you a PM and an apology along with it
 
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I agree Denetsu_x, ya'll need to chill. For the short time I have been on this forum I have never been made to feel my opinion didn't count just because it sounded like I was repeating something that was already stated. (Aside from the fact that this is a relatively a small forum. It's not your bandwidth so why would you even care?)

But he actually makes a valid point that you may hvae missed, Double Coston, Kaiser Sea Horse and Flame Ruler do not Special Summon anything. That is a significant difference from the Special Summoning abilities of Kaibaman and the others and may be why there is a distinction for Divine Wrath's sake.
 
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This being able to tribute Kaibaman, REBD chick & the Creator Incarnate while face down does seem a bit odd since you're initiating a tribute when you shouldn't be allowed to do so as if they're face down you can't reference their effect and if you've already summoned/set you can't perform a tribute summon and you're not allowed tribute just for the sake of tributing. You're initiating a special summon without any clear activation.
 
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StRiKe_NiNjA said:
You can Divine Wrath effects that Special Summons monsters such as Red-Eyes B. Chick, Kaibaman, Paladin of White Dragon, etc, as tributing is part of their effect to Special Summon some monster.

But not the effects of Kaiser Sea Horse, Double Coston, Flame Ruler, etc. as thier effects are Continuous Effects.
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Red-Eyes B. Chick and Paladin are Ignition Effects, that is why they are required to remain face-up. The others are not, they are sort of continuous effects, that will simply count them as 2 Tributes instead of one.

EDIT: after rereading Kaibaman, it seems that you may have a point, it does seem to resemble an Ignition Effect.
 
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novastar said:
You cannot chain to Kaibaman's effect it is continuous and identical to Kaiser Sea Horse.
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Kaibaman a Continuous Effect? I think that...

You tribute Kaibaman as a cost to activate it's effect to Special Summon 1 Blue-Eyes White Dragon from your hand, Divine Wrath can be chained to it. I don't believe the effect is similar to Kaiser Sea Horse since Kaiser Sea Horse if for Tribute Summons.

EDIT: Ok, so I believe this stands. You cannot chain Divine Wrath to effects to Kaiser Sea Horse, as these monsters are not Ignition Effect monsters, but, Divine Wrath can be chained to effects of Kaibaman, which resembles an Ignition Effect.
 
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EDIT: Ok, so I believe this stands. You cannot chain Divine Wrath to effects to Kaiser Sea Horse, as these monsters are not Ignition Effect monsters, but, Divine Wrath can be chained to effects of Kaibaman, which resembles an Ignition Effect.
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It doesn't seem so.

The Creator Incarnate and Kaibaman are identical, and if you can Tribute them face-down, then they cannot be Ignition Effects so my honest guess would be that they are "continuous-like" effects.

Of course as Rai said nothing official.
 
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daivahataka said:
This being able to tribute Kaibaman, REBD chick & The Creator Incarnate while face down does seem a bit odd since you're initiating a tribute when you shouldn't be allowed to do so as if they're face down you can't reference their effect and if you've already summoned/set you can't perform a tribute summon and you're not allowed tribute just for the sake of tributing. You're initiating a special summon without any clear activation.
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Hmmmm . . . going out an limb seems to be my specialty nowadays, so I'm gonna take a stab at this one, too.

I think monster cards that require themselves to be "tributed" for thier effect (and do not specificaly require themselves to be face-up) can be tributed face-down without defying any game mechanics. They allow you to tell your opponent at the moment of payment what card they are and what card effect is going off. They do this because thier effects do not require them to be face-up at the moment of tribute and cards like Exiled Force, Winged Minion and The Forgiving Maiden specificaly do.

If they don't specificaly designate themselves (and themselves alone) as the selection for the tribute and if they are not specificaly Special Summoning something then you cannot tribute them for thier effect.

Hmmm . . .I feel the limb breaking . . .
 
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