Face-Down Monster cards

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Azatoth

New Member
A debate started here:

http://www.igforums.com/showthread.php?p=53806

It's partly about me not understanding why face-down monster cards do have effects at all, as they should be without Type, Attribute and effect in my opinion.

So how can you tribute a face-down Kaibaman or The Creator Incarnate for a BEWD or Creator? Why can you send a face-down Beast-Type monster to the graveyard for Manticore of Darkness' effect, as they should not have a type at all (as far as I know and believe).

So can anyone explain why you should be able to use The Creator Incarnate's effect while face-down to tribute him and summon The Creator from your hand in particular, and how face-down monster cards are treated regarding Type, Attribute, Level and Effect in general?

Thanks.
 
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Hey I was post 50, 69, and now I am 100 :)

So, if they do rule it that way, Blue-Eyes White Dragon might be like Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beggining, just tribute Kaibaman like you would remove 1 Light and 1 Dark.

I believe Kaibaman is much like Paladin of White Dragon, an Ignition Effect.

But who knows now, it could be anything.

Man... I sort of promised myself I wouldn't post about this topic anymore... LoL Oh Well
 
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I believe we have made our point accross the world and back and then some.

We wait for destiny to unfold... in the meantime... sit down eat and drink... Sushi and some Sake... mines 20% :)
 
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I'd have to call Kaibaman an ignition effect and his tributing himself to speical summon BEWD to be chainable by Divine Wrath.

Difference between Dark Necrofear/Lava Golem vs. Kaibaman is the source. For Dark Necro/Lava Golem, the ability to special summon comes from DN/LG while it is in hand. Blue Eyes White Dragon doesn't say, "You may also tribute a Kaibaman from your side of the field to speical summon me."

The only way BEWD can be special summoned (obvious graveyard recurrsion cards aside) is from *the effect* of Kaibaman/Paladin of White Dragon. Their effect is what special summons BEWD. Them tributing themselves is just a cost to activate that effect. By that thinking, they are an ignition effect and chainable by Divine Wrath just like I could DW Cannon Soldier.

Just my $.02
 
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So if/when we do hear something more official on this, we'll know the rulings for just how we can activate The Creator Incarnate, Kaibaman, and all the Hex-Sealed Fusions, amongst other cards with almost identical wording to them all, and see just how chainable, IF chainable, these effects are?

I think it could be really nice if you could use Earth Hex that way, and especially not have to worry about that activation being Divine Wrathed.

And here a couple months ago, someone tried to tell me Kaibaman was exactly like Red Eyes B. Chick, and now we have this. Man, talk about funny. I love this game sometimes, hehe.
 
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Okay, dug up a little more weight to the idea of Kaibaman being chainable:

Hand of Nephthys:
You can chain to the activation of "Hand of Nephthys" effect with the effect of "Royal Oppression" to negate the Speical Summon of "Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys".

Not sure if it was already a consensus, but that slants Hand of Nephthys, Creater Incarnate, Kaibaman, etc... away from being continuous and more to being ignition.
 
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Raijinili said:
The huge problem with your solution is that Mystik Wok, DDVD, any other kind of effect you can think of, are OUTSIDE effects. Ignitions can't activate while face-down.

There, I compared it to Kaibaman.

If you feel weaker in your resolve at any point, know that Kevin Tewart and the JERP are with you. Had an argument with him about it, too. Says that I may get an answer from Konami in December. Of next year. Might.

============

In other news, I have officially become paranoid. I have found the three characters that I believe make the "rule-breaking effect": る事で.

So far, I have found the following with that phrase in the text:
The Dark - Hex-Sealed Fusion
The Light - Hex-Sealed Fusion
The Earth - Hex-Sealed Fusion
Hand of Nephthys
Paladin of White Dragon
Dark Sage
The Creator Incarnate
Kaibaman

I realize this post will severely lower my credibility, especially since PoWD is already listed as an Ignition, but you just watch.
Click to expand...

Great post Rai. This sums it up -- it is kind of rule-breaking. Or, we may just look back on it as "rule-creating".

Paying an ignition effect while face down -- I wouldn't have thunk it before Incarnate. A few weeks ago I was asked if one could tribute a face down beast for Manticore. I told 'em I wasn't sure, but wouldn't think so. I knew Metamorphasis/Mystic Wok with face down was good, but I was thinking old school that face down had no type/effect. I looked up the correct ruling the next day. Yeah, I definitely make my mistakes! Glad it was just a fun game they were playing and not a tourney.

So activating a face down ignition effect may end up being just be a new aspect of rules for us. Given the Creator Incarnate ruling, it looks that way at the moment.

Nice post again, especially researching out other monsters that could fall in this category.
 
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Raijinili said:
Ectoplasma has a continuous effect.
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I almost forgot.

"You can chain "Mystical Space Typhoon" or "Raigeki Break" to "Ectoplasmer"'s effect, and if there is no "Ectoplasmer" on the field, then its effect is not applied."

Currently the FAQ states that the effect is a chainable Trigger.
 
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novastar said:
I almost forgot.

"You can chain "Mystical Space Typhoon" or "Raigeki Break" to "Ectoplasmer"'s effect, and if there is no "Ectoplasmer" on the field, then its effect is not applied."

Currently the FAQ states that the effect is a chainable Trigger.
Click to expand...
http://home.att.ne.jp/moon/puppiy/rule/rule4/SOD-JP043.htm

I was bound to get something wrong. The JERP lists Ectoplasmer as a permanent effect, but I forgot a very important part of the classification and I didn't read down the page.

Ectoplasma can indeed be chained. Not only that, it can be chained by Curse of Pain.

And yes, although Hand of Nephthys contains "る事で", it is an ignition effect. As in all experiments, I must amend my theory to allow for the new observation.
 
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For those of you who feel a bit frustrated between this and the more recent Exiled force Vs End of Anubis and Pole Position, etc...:
Konami ga sou itterukara = Because Konami say so

munode bakana Konami ga sou itterukara = Because Konami, the clueless fools say so (or something approximating it)

Honnintachimo itterukotoha wakaranaikedo, toriaezu konami ga sou itterukara = Because Konami say so although they don't actually have an idea of what they're saying (or something approximating it)

Think I'll stick with the second, I'd run out of breath with the third... :eek:
 
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munode bakana Konami ga sou itterukara = Because Konami, the clueless fools say so (or something approximating it)

Honnintachimo itterukotoha wakaranaikedo, toriaezu konami ga sou itterukara = Because Konami say so although they don't actually have an idea of what they're saying (or something approximating it)
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Thank you very much.:) :) :) *happy*

Think I'll stick with the second, I'd run out of breath with the third... :eek:
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I agree :D .

Now if they just said something about these issues...although they usually don't have an idea of what they're saying...*lol*
 
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Raijinili said:
In other news, I have officially become paranoid. I have found the three characters that I believe make the "rule-breaking effect": る事で.

So far, I have found the following with that phrase in the text:
The Dark - Hex-Sealed Fusion
The Light - Hex-Sealed Fusion
The Earth - Hex-Sealed Fusion
Hand of Nephthys
Paladin of White Dragon
Dark Sage
The Creator Incarnate
Kaibaman

I realize this post will severely lower my credibility, especially since PoWD is already listed as an Ignition, but you just watch.
Click to expand...
I thought i'd add an update that i found...

The Official Japanese ruling on The Creator Incarnate is that you cannot activate it's Ignition Effect while it is face-down.

That is from the Official Konami Japanese FAQ. It seems that this might not be so "rule-breaking" afterall, just a plain old normal Ignition Effect.

Tisk Tisk UDE...

go see it for yourself:
http://www.yugioh-card.com/japan/list/list01.html

How is that for an Official Ruling?
 
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novastar said:
I thought i'd add an update that i found...

The Official Japanese ruling on The Creator Incarnate is that you cannot activate it's Ignition Effect while it is face-down.

That is from the Official Konami Japanese FAQ. It seems that this might not be so "rule-breaking" afterall, just a plain old normal Ignition Effect.

Tisk Tisk UDE...

go see it for yourself:
http://www.yugioh-card.com/japan/list/list01.html

How is that for an Official Ruling?
Click to expand...
I was always under the impression that cards like this would have to be tributed face-up in order to get their effect anyway. Without reading all the pages of this thread, I must admit I'm not entirely sure if this is the main topic, but I can't see how similar cards could be activated otherwise.

Of course, the only reason I can see to even put this card on the field as a set, would be if you didnt have The Creator in hand. The waiting period can be long, depending on your deck speed, but when it does come, and its your turn, hopefully your opponent wont have a Ring of Destruction or Torrential Tribute when you flip summon it.
 
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novastar said:
Me too, which is why the UDE's incarnate ruling really shocked me.

This would also mean that Kaibaman should follow the same rules.
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What's the Japanese stance on Exiled Force Vs. End of Anubis? Are UDE trying to rewrite the rules for the game outside Japan (don't think they're legally entitle to do so!) ?
 
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daivahataka said:
What's the Japanese stance on Exiled Force Vs. End of Anubis? Are UDE trying to rewrite the rules for the game outside Japan (don't think they're legally entitle to do so!) ?
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The Official Konami FAQ makes no mention of Exiled Force vs. End of Anubis. It does mention Exiled Force vs. Skill Drain and states that Exiled's effect is not negated because it itself is off the field at the time the effect resolves.

Infact, there is no mention of the Graveyard in any ruling involving Exiled Force.

It seriously makes me wonder if this ruling actually came from Konami.
 
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novastar said:
The Official Konami FAQ makes no mention of Exiled Force vs. End of Anubis. It does mention Exiled Force vs. Skill Drain and states that Exiled's effect is not negated because it itself is off the field at the time the effect resolves.

Infact, there is no mention of the Graveyard in any ruling involving Exiled Force.

It seriously makes me wonder if this ruling actually came from Konami.
Click to expand...
The fact that there seems to have been no real hinting towards (similar rulings on similar cards, e.g. SDM & SWM) it before now kinda leaves me wondering the same. :confused:
 
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