FIber Jar vs. Final Countdown and a Token Question

Digital Jedi

Digital Jedi

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1) Just to verify something, will the effect of Final Countdown still aplly even after it returns to the deck with Fiber Jar. If not, then why?

2) I know more about tokens then anyone would care to know, but I'm still unclear as to when they are considered "destroyed." Morphing Jar #2 will not shuffle them back into the deck, but if they are Ojama Tokens will they inflict the 300 points of damage each? The Fiber Jar ruling suggests that they will.

Monster Tokens in play will be destroyed when the effect of "Fiber Jar" is activated.

But nowadays, I'm trepadatious of taking any rulings at thier word.
 
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Actually it would be a stretch since some effects can remove it from the field and not destroy it. If an effect does not destroy a monster, why should it be different for the token in that case?
 
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densetsu_x said:
Actually it would be a stretch since some effects can remove it from the field and not destroy it. If an effect does not destroy a monster, why should it be different for the token in that case?
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Because a token is different when it leaves the field. It has special conditions that can't be undone.
 
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"destruction" is an actual specific action that occurs prior to sending a card to the Graveyard.

My guess is that the wording is poor. Fiber Jar does not actually destroy the tokens, they are simply removed from the field.
 
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I don't think there is any question that Fiber Jar by it's own effect doesn't destroy the tokens. The question is when a token leaves the field is it considered removed and "dissapears" or is considered destroyed by game mechanics.
 
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I was looking at the rulings for Different Dimesnion Gate as it's the card of the day today and ran across this reference in it's rulings as well....

You can select a Monster Token when you activate "Different Dimension Gate", but the token is destroyed.
 
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John Danker said:
I was looking at the rulings for Different Dimesnion Gate as it's the card of the day today and ran across this reference in it's rulings as well....

You can select a Monster Token when you activate "Different Dimension Gate", but the token is destroyed.
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Another destruction refrence, eh? I knew there was at least one other, but most of the rulings I found either said "removed frm play" or "removed from the game"
 
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John Danker said:
Give me some of those references would you? I'll do some cross-referencing and if we can't get this resolved I'll send it to the judge's board.
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Sure. For the life of me I can't find the "removed form the game" reference, but the there are "removed from play"s o'plenty.

Chain Disappearance
The effect of "Chain Disappearance" can remove multiple monsters that are Summoned simultaneously, for example if your opponent activates "Scapegoat", you can respond with "Chain Disappearance" to remove from play all 4 "Sheep Tokens" that were Special Summoned.

Penguin Soldier
You may target Monster Tokens but they will be removed from play.

Fatal Abacus
Monsters that are removed from play and monsters that are destroyed while "Banisher of Light" is on the field do not trigger this card's effect. This is because they never go to the Graveyard.


Chain Disappearance
The effect of "Chain Disappearance" can remove multiple monsters that are Summoned simultaneously, for example if your opponent activates "Scapegoat", you can respond with "Chain Disappearance" to remove from play all 4 "Sheep Tokens" that were Special Summoned.

Chaos Emperor Dragon - Envoy of the End
Tokens will be removed from play by "Chaos Emperor Dragon - Envoy of the End"'s effect, but will not add to the damage total because they are not sent to the Graveyard.

Interestingly, I stumbled across another "destruction due to game mechanics" refrence. One that is a bit more common, but that I forgot about.

Ojama Trio
If there are Ojama Tokens on your opponent's side of the field, and "Remove Brainwashing" is activated, the Ojama Tokens are switched to your side of the field. If you don't have enough Monster Zones for them, some of the Ojama Tokens are destroyed and the damage is inflicted to the opponent.
 
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That last part has the Ojama tokens destroyed by game mechanic but still does damage. However, the game mechanic with tokens removes them from play when they are removed from the field, which I don't think is destroying them, even by game mechanic.
 
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Manta said:
That last part has the Ojama tokens destroyed by game mechanic but still does damage. However, the game mechanic with tokens removes them from play when they are removed from the field, which I don't think is destroying them, even by game mechanic.
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The thing is, I've never heard one way or the other that tokens couldn't be destroyed by removing them from the field. Even though many don't think they are, the mechanic has never really been defined.
 
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Digital Jedi said:
The thing is, I've never heard one way or the other that tokens couldn't be destroyed by removing them from the field. Even though many don't think they are, the mechanic has never really been defined.
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Exactly my thoughts. I agree. You can't define what "removed from the field" or "destroyed" means in ruling sometimes.
 
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I've posted a question on the judge's list regarding the topic and gave examples of it being ruled both ways. Hopefully they'll shed some light on the subject. Often times, however, they don't want to go into why and explain the mechanics, only give the ruling.
 
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I've learned that this is on Kevin's list of subjects to talk with Konami about. For the time being, I suppose we'll have to rule it on a card specific basis....though, as always, the head judge's ruling is final.
 
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John Danker said:
If someone can show me a ruling that any other kind of monster is destroyed when Fiber Jar is flipped I'd have a lot easier time buying into the tokens being destroyed. I'm having a tough time stomaching that Fiber Jar destroys or that tokens are destroyed if not in the "regular ways"

I was hoping to gleen some help on this by looking at the rulings on Ballon Lizard vs. Fiber Jar but didn't find anything.....yet.
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Maybe it's the simple fact that Tokens can "never" go to the Graveyard, where all monsters "normally" go when destroyed or sent from the field.

Unless the effect states specifically that they cant, and its usually because of a condition, a monster can go 5 places (hand, deck, Graveyard, fusion deck, RFG) whereas a Token can only go to one when it leaves the field.

But as we all know, under normal Game Mechanics, a monster will attempt to go to the Graveyard when removed from the field and not returned to hand. Since a Token is generated from a card effect and is not really a monster per se, it cannot go to the Graveyard as a normal requirement for monsters sent from the field. Since the condition for its summon is no longer active (or it was sent from the field to deck/hand), when the token leaves the field, it would be destroyed due to the fact it is no longer bound to the cards effect that summoned it.

Best I can come up with....
 
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I think we all realize the possibilities and the conditions.

What we'd like to see is some consistancy. We know that if a token is actually destroyed by card effect it is of course considered destroyed.

If, however, it's not destroyed by card effect while on the field but instead removed from the field by card effect ....then is it considered destroyed or simply removed / vanish / dissappear from the game?

The rulings seem to be terribly inconsistant regarding this.
 
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