Fusilier Dragon & Deck Devastation Virus

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Madma

New Member
You can read these among the ruling about Fusilier Dragon:

If you Summon "Fusilier Dragon, the Dual-Mode Beast" without Tribute, then flip it face-down, you can use it to activate "Deck Devastation Virus".

Now, what happens if Fusilier Dragon is SET without trubute? Its atk value will be 1400, right? So, can Deck Devastation Virus be activated tributing a "set without tribute" Fusilier Dragon?
 
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Yes, you can still tribute a face-down monster because they are your monsters and you know what their attack is. Although your opponent doesn't know the characteristics of your face-down monsters (such as with the Soul Exchange/Metamorphosis ruling) you most certainly are aware of their ATK, DEF, etc. and of course a Fuselier set without tribute is only a 1400 ATK monster thus ineligible to be tributed as the cost for Deck Devastation Virus.
 
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Thats what i'm thinking too... but the retention of the halved ATK in the Graveyard makes me think differently.

This is definately one confusing effect... too confusing for it's own good.
 
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I think that might have been a general update after some of the issues regarding Red Eyes B. Chick / Hand of Nephthys / Kaiser Sea-Horse and the others that involved being able to use their effects while face down. I know Kaiser still applies, but some of the others don't anymore. But that's just a hunch on my part.
 
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I've sadi this before, but it bears repeating. The JERP is inacurate in my oppinion on a lot of things. I'm more inclined to belive the rulings from a source where things are being constantly questioned and refined. The Japanese tend to take whatever answer they get without question.

Aside from the fact that if the JERP really does state its effect isn't applied face-down then where in the sam-hill do they get that if its set without tribute that its effect is activated when flipped face-up?
 
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Digital Jedi said:
I've sadi this before, but it bears repeating. The JERP is inacurate in my oppinion on a lot of things. I'm more inclined to belive the rulings from a source where things are being constantly questioned and refined. The Japanese tend to take whatever answer they get without question.
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You don't know what you're talking about. Please stop.
Digital Jedi said:
Aside from the fact that if the JERP really does state its effect isn't applied face-down then where in the sam-hill do they get that if its set without tribute that its effect is activated when flipped face-up?
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Its effect isn't applied when it's face-down because you apparently can't affect the stats of a face-down monster. Simple mechanics, no?
 
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Yes. Simple. Simple inconsistancy. Its effect aplies as soon as its flipped face-up but not while its face-down?

You have a problem with someone disagreeing with the JERP? Fine. But dont presume I don;t know what I'm talking about. It's been stated time before that the Japanese do not question authority on the level that we do in the West. While thats merely a cultural difference, it has a huge impact on the way rulings are refined and tested. I've never heard more people flat out say that a ruling was incorrect then Westerners.

And Rai, don't presume that you are the final word on all things Japanese either. It doesn't even matter if you are Japanese. Some of us do know what we are talking about.
 
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Digital Jedi said:
Yes. Simple. Simple inconsistancy. Its effect aplies as soon as its flipped face-up but not while its face-down?
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Its effect might try to work, but has an effect ever been able to change the stats of a face-down card?

Mystic Plasma Zone
Field Spell
Increase the ATK of all DARK monsters by 500 points and decrease their DEF by 400 points.

Would that effect affect a face-down monster's eligibility for Deck Devastation Virus?
Digital Jedi said:
It's been stated time before that the Japanese do not question authority on the level that we do in the West.
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And stereotypes always work, no?
Digital Jedi said:
Some of us do know what we are talking about.
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Right. And what do you know about how the JERP is run? What do you know about how it gets its answers, and how much it questions them?
 
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Well, my suggestion is to place in your existing thread, regarding the JERP, detailed information as to how the JEPR is compiled and run, how it gets it answers and someting to give us an idea of how much it is questioned and the imapct that has on the overall rulings. For now let's leave discussion about the JERP to your existing thread.

As far as face-downs go my statement points to the rulings inconsistancy. Face-down it doesn't get it's effect, but according to the ruing it sort of does. At least when its flipped, which doesn't make a lick of sense. If face-downs truley don't get thier effect then a Fusilier set without tribute shouldn't have its stats halved whether its been flipped or not.
 
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Digital Jedi said:
Well, my suggestion is to place in your existing thread, regarding the JERP, detailed information as to how the JEPR is compiled and run, how it gets it answers and someting to give us an idea of how much it is questioned and the imapct that has on the overall rulings. For now let's leave discussion about the JERP to your existing thread.
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But that was a thread for Fusion Gate. I didn't want that as a JERP thread.

Besides, it's part of the fun to find out for yourself. I.E. I know/infer only enough to know that you're wrong and I don't have any specifics other than YES, they have forums, the rulings are not "figured out", and some other stuff I can't think of, and I would ask Puppiy himself but I'm lazy when it comes to starting conversations. Maybe you can ask Edo.
Digital Jedi said:
As far as face-downs go my statement points to the rulings inconsistancy. Face-down it doesn't get it's effect, but according to the ruing it sort of does. At least when its flipped, which doesn't make a lick of sense. If face-downs truley don't get thier effect then a Fusilier set without tribute shouldn't have its stats halved whether its been flipped or not.
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I think it was a necessary ruling for the setting of Fusilier Dragon. In the Japanese texts, "Normal Summon and Set" is simply "tsuujuu shoukan" or something like that. It means "normal summon".
But they decided not to have it conflict with the "face-down" rule.

I've actually had more time to deal with this than you did, since I saw the rul... yeah, let's stop there.
 
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Raijinili said:
I think it was a necessary ruling for the setting of Fusilier Dragon. In the Japanese texts, "Normal Summon and Set" is simply "tsuujuu shoukan" or something like that. It means "normal summon".
But they decided not to have it conflict with the "face-down" rule.
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Regardless, it doesn't make sense since there would have to be an Appropriate mechanic that allows it to be "tsuujuu shoukan" face-down. If the mechanics allow for it to be set and the mechanics say it has no effect when set, then it makes no sense to suddenly say it now has the effect it would have gotten had its effect text been active when it was summoned face-down, but it wasn't but you get the effect anyway.

The ruling is fine and just prevents unfairness, but it has no logical resoning behind it other then stifffling a way around the restriction.
 
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Why wouldnt it be? You dont have to tell your opponent what you set face-down, but you know that it was set without Tribute, and he'll know once you flip it face-up that you didnt Tribute for it.

His effect states that he can be set without Tribute, and as we know, monsters "normally" do not have effects while face-down, so why wouldn't he still be at 2800 attack until he is flipped face-up?

As far as Mystic Plasma Zone and a face-down Dark Monster, doesnt the ruling state that the effect of a Field Spell Card doesn't take place until the Damage Step if it is attacked, so it doesnt matter if it's face-down while a Stat Modifier effects the field.

If you can reason that it is still unaffected by its own effect until it is actually face-up, why can't you then tribute it the same way you would tribute a face-down Giant Orc or Dark Ruler Ha Des?
 
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Digital Jedi said:
Regardless, it doesn't make sense since there would have to be an Appropriate mechanic that allows it to be "tsuujuu shoukan" face-down. If the mechanics allow for it to be set and the mechanics say it has no effect when set, then it makes no sense to suddenly say it now has the effect it would have gotten had its effect text been active when it was summoned face-down, but it wasn't but you get the effect anyway.
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Perhaps it remembers the way it was summoned.

Don't tell me about the "Book of Moon" ruling. That's easily explained by saying that it forgets its effect when flipped face-down. You can target a face-down monster with a certain Permanent Trap, and it would stop having an effect if that monster was flipped up then down.
masterwoo0 said:
As far as Mystic Plasma Zone and a face-down Dark Monster, doesnt the ruling state that the effect of a Field Spell Card doesn't take place until the Damage Step if it is attacked, so it doesnt matter if it's face-down while a Stat Modifier effects the field.
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Come again?
 
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