Hades vs Hades?

[1nv4d3r]

I've just come up with this strange idea so I'm posting it.

Player A has Dark Ruler Ha Des on his side of the field

Player B summons Dark Ruler Ha Des and equip it with, lets say, Axe of Despair.

Player B attacks Player A's Dark Ruler Ha Des and destroy it

...since hades negates effects, Would Player A be able to Premature burial hades in his next turn??

 

[Hinky]

no. Dark Ruler Ha Des can not be revived from the Graveyard ever. That section of its text is a condition that can not be negated. Currently there is no way to revive him from the graveyard.

 

[1nv4d3r]

yea i KNOW it can't be revived from graveyard, but if its effect gets negated...im not sure about that part of hades' effect...but since that, that's part of his effect, then it would be negated if destroyed by another hades and could possibly be revived from the graveyard...

just odd thoughts

 

[Hinky]

no need to be not sure. the answer is no my friend.

"¢ If your "Dark Ruler Ha Des" or other Fiend-Type monster destroys "Tyrant Dragon" as a result of battle, a Dragon-Type monster must still be Tributed when "Tyrant Dragon" is Special Summoned from the Graveyard. This is because Tributing a Dragon-Type monster is a condition on the Summoning of the card; it is not part of the effect. For the same reason, if a Spirit Monster is destroyed by a Fiend-Type monster when "Dark Ruler Ha Des" is on the field, it still cannot be Special Summoned from the Graveyard. Also if two "Dark Ruler Ha Des" destroy each other in battle, neither can be Special Summoned from the Graveyard.

That is from ronin which mirrors the official website

 

[masterwoo0]

The basic reason behind Ha Des not being able to negate the Special Summon condition from the Graveyard is the same reason behind Spirit Monsters being unable to be Special Summoned.

It is not an "effect". You cannot negate a Condition, you can only negate an effect.

Ha Des CAN be Special Summoned if he is removed from play since the "condition" only affects him while he is in the Graveyard.

Spirit Monsters can NEVER be Special Summoned from hand, deck, Graveyard, or the removed from play area, as the condition placed on them states that they cannot be Special Summoned, ever.

 

[novastar]

It is not an "effect". You cannot negate a Condition, you can only negate an effect.

That is actually not completely accurate. You can negate a condition, it just depends on where it is applying, and from where it came.

The condition placed on both Dark Ruler and the Spirit Monsters is a restriction on the "card" itself, and will apply in all zones.

A condition placed on "a monster" can be negated, as "a monster" is not a card, but an object type a Monster Card becomes when resolved to the field, and are in a sense, part of an effect.

 

[spotsknight]

That is actually not completely accurate. You can negate a condition, it just depends on where it is applying, and from where it came.

The condition placed on both Dark Ruler and the Spirit Monsters is a restriction on the "card" itself, and will apply in all zones.

Conditions placed on "a monster" can be negated, as "a monster" is not a card, but an object type a Monster Card becomes when resolved to the field.

Close but not quite. Conditions can not be negated. There are game mechanics that will remove conditions (via removed from game or flipped face down), but there are no (currently) effects that will NEGATE a condition. That is why if you use Scientist's effect then later Skill Drain is activated the Fusion Monsters still are returned to the Fusion Deck.

Just being nitpicky because if you say they can be negated then someone will come along and claim that we said Skill Drain (or some other negating effect) would work on conditions when that is not what we said at all.
Spot's Knight

 

[novastar]

How did i now someone was going to say that....

Conditions are odd.

Zombyra's "This card cannot attack a player directly." can be negated by Skill Drain.

Magical Scientist's "That Fusion Monster cannot attack your opponent's Life Points directly" cannot be negated by Skill Drain.

To simply say that conditions cannot be negated is incorrect, so there is definately some merit to what i am saying, even though my explaination was severly flawed .

I just trying formulate some method to the maddness, to simplify it. It might take some time though.

 

[masterwoo0]

First off, Skill Drain negates effect cards. That means as long as Zombrya is on the field and face up, he has no effect. Even though he states on the card that he cannot attack directly, that is a condition that is negated since it is part of his card text as an effect monster.

Second, once Zombrya is destroyed or removed from the field, he would be unaffected by Skill Drain, and resume back to being unable to attack directly, but he is no longer on the field.

Third, Skill Drain would also negate Dark Ruler Ha Des' effect and condition for being Special Summoned from the Graveyard, but its not in the Graveyard, so it really doesnt matter. When Dark Ruler is removed and sent to the Graveyard, it is once again unaffected by Skill Drain, and cannot be reborn because its not an effect (its a condition) that can be negated while in the Graveyard; only on the field and only because its not a maintenance cost or cost effect.

Fourth, Monsters successfully summoned by Magical Scientist are under the condition of the intial summon, and Skill Drain cannot negate the condition that brought them to the field. It can only negate the effect of the actual card that was summoned.


So, in conclusion, you cannot "really" negate a condition using Skill Drain. It is the actual effect monster that loses his card text (unless its a Maintenance Cost) and along with it, the condition or restriction, as long as it is face-up on the field.

 

[novastar]

First off, Skill Drain negates effect cards. That means as long as Zombrya is on the field and face up, he has no effect. Even though he states on the card that he cannot attack directly, that is a condition that is negated since it is part of his card text as an effect monster.

This seems to have some weight, and might or might not be true. I can see it though based on the text of Skill Drain, negating only the effects of the Effect Monsters themselves.

Second, once Zombrya is destroyed or removed from the field, he would be unaffected by Skill Drain, and resume back to being unable to attack directly, but he is no longer on the field.

This statement seems erroneous at best.

Third, Skill Drain would also negate Dark Ruler Ha Des' effect and condition for being Special Summoned from the Graveyard, but its not in the Graveyard, so it really doesnt matter. When Dark Ruler is removed and sent to the Graveyard, it is once again unaffected by Skill Drain, and cannot be reborn because its not an effect (its a condition) that can be negated while in the Graveyard; only on the field and only because its not a maintenance cost or cost effect.

Not sure about that one.

Fourth, Monsters successfully summoned by Magical Scientist are under the condition of the intial summon, and Skill Drain cannot negate the condition that brought them to the field. It can only negate the effect of the actual card that was summoned.

This statement has some weight to it, similar to the first one.

My initial point was that "conditions" are not ultimately impervious to negation, which you have directly backed up through your own statements. It simply depends on the circumstance. To simply state that conditions cannot be negated seems counter-intuitive.

You've definately given me some food for though here though. I actually am starting to see a little light at the end of the tunnel with this.

 

[masterwoo0]

Glad I could at least stimulate thought. Here is something that is a direct part of Skill Drain's ruling:

"Restrictions are also lifted, so you can attack with "Ultimate Obedient Fiend" even if you have other cards on your side of the field."


So as you can see, Skill Drain can remove restrictions or "conditions", but that is only while that monster remains face-up and on the field. Once it is face-down or removed, cards in hand, deck or Graveyard cannot be affected by SD.

Thats why you still cant normal summon "Cave Dragon" to the field if there is a monster on your side, as he cant be negated from your hand.

 

[novastar]

That i understand...but its always been a fuzzy area for me personally, i'm just trying to put it into perspective. But you will now agree that there are some scenarios in which conditions can be lifted or negated, which is what i was originally getting at. If you see in my first post, that is the gist of what i was saying.

For example, if Skill Drain affected the graveyard instead of the field, Dark Ruler's condition would be lifted.

 

[masterwoo0]

That i understand...but its always been a fuzzy area for me personally, i'm just trying to put it into perspective. But you will now agree that there are some scenarios in which conditions can be lifted or negated, which is what i was originally getting at.

For example, if Skill Drain affected the graveyard instead of the field, Dark Ruler's condition would be lifted.

That sounds reasonable.

But, a lot of times, its more the situation that gets addressed more than "gameplay". When I said that you cant negate a condition, I really meant that you cant negate Dark Ruler with Dark Ruler to lift the Special Summoning restrict cause its not really an effect. If Dark Ruler could negate conditions AS WELL AS effects, that would be different cause then I could get Twin-Headed Behemoth back in hand and re-summon him at 1500 atk.