Injection Fairy Lily vs. Divine Wrath

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novastar

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I saw this discussion on "another site and figured i'd throw it on here and see what this comunity has to say about it. I have posted this on the board to try and "see" if we can somehow sqweeze an answer out of Kevin.

1.) If IFL is attacking and the controller chooses to activate her effect and the opponent activates Divine Wrath, will she be destroyed by Divine Wrath's effect? If she is, will it be instantly or after (assuming she survives)Damage Calculation.

2.) If IFL is defending and the controller chooses to activate her effect, and the turn player decides to activate Divine Wrath, will she be destroyed by Divine Wrath? Again, will this be instantly or after (assuming she survives) Damage Calculation. Will replay be triggered?

Those are the questions i posted on the board. I personaly am pretty sure replay would be triggered at all in the second example, but i figured i'd though it in for others. I figure the first question is straight forward, IFL would be destroyed and the attack would stop, but you never know....

The big question for me is, will IFL be destroyed by Divine Wrath at the moment DR resolves or after Damage Calculation. I've seen similar ruling showing that monster won't be destroyed untill after DC.

Thoughts?
 
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novastar said:
I saw this discussion on "another site and figured i'd throw it on here and see what this comunity has to say about it. I have posted this on the board to try and "see" if we can somehow sqweeze an answer out of Kevin.

1.) If IFL is attacking and the controller chooses to activate her effect and the opponent activates Divine Wrath, will she be destroyed by Divine Wrath's effect? If she is, will it be instantly or after (assuming she survives)Damage Calculation.
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She would be instantly destroyed (when "Divine Wrath" resolves and the attacking player would be out the 2000LP as well).

2.) If IFL is defending and the controller chooses to activate her effect, and the turn player decides to activate Divine Wrath, will she be destroyed by Divine Wrath? Again, will this be instantly or after (assuming she survives) Damage Calculation. Will replay be triggered?
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This was something that was mentioned in another thread. Yes she would be destroyed again instantly (and again the controller would be out the 2000lp). No replay would be triggered (no replays can happen in the damage step). Also, that attack would just "end". The attacking monster would not inflict any damage. The scenario (as pointed out) would be similar to "Mystic Swordsman LVx" attacking and destroying a facedown monster by effect. It's just destroyed, move onto the next monster.

Those are the questions i posted on the board. I personaly am pretty sure replay would be triggered at all in the second example, but i figured i'd though it in for others. I figure the first question is straight forward, IFL would be destroyed and the attack would stop, but you never know....

The big question for me is, will IFL be destroyed by Divine Wrath at the moment DR resolves or after Damage Calculation. I've seen similar ruling showing that monster won't be destroyed untill after DC.

Thoughts?
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Like I said, her effect would ne negated and she'd just be destroyed when "Divine Wrath" resolves. Nothing else would happen for that attack and the attacking player would just choose another monster to attack with.

- A
 
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Just a thought, but isn't it true that the only traps/quick-play spells that can be activated in the damage step are ones that modify ATK or DEF?

Did this change or am I completely off-base on this? If I'm not mistaken, Lily's effect is activated during the damage step, so I would think that you could not activate Divine Wrath to negate and destroy Lily. Or is this an exception to the rule? Or again, am I completely off-base on this? Or does it have to do with being a counter-trap?
 
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Counter-traps can be activated any time as long as they've been set for a turn, including the damage step, as long as their activation matches the appropriate response (like you can't activate "Magic Jammer" unless someone activates a Spell card).

- A
 
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This was something that was mentioned in another thread. Yes she would be destroyed again instantly (and again the controller would be out the 2000lp). No replay would be triggered (no replays can happen in the damage step). Also, that attack would just "end". The attacking monster would not inflict any damage. The scenario (as pointed out) would be similar to "Mystic Swordsman LVx" attacking and destroying a facedown monster by effect. It's just destroyed, move onto the next monster.
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Then what about Gearfried + Blast with Chain, or Thunder Nyan Nyan + a face-up LIGHT monster, or even Spirit Reaper + Rush Recklessly. Or even Rivalry of Warlords.

Assume i am refering to defending monster in all cases being destroyed, not the attacker. In all those scenarios, the monster is not destroyed by an effect until after Damage Calculation (if they survive).

The Divine Wrath + IFL situation is not like Mystic Swordsman, because in the IFL scenario, you are now (according to kevin's fine chart) in Damage Calculation. Dropping the defender in the middle of Damage Calculation seems like a no-no in YGO, and is supported by the rulings in the past.

I definately could see the situation going both ways. I have asked for clarification, but i doubt i'll get it.
 
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These are all examples of effects of the defending monsters and when they will resolve. Konami has chosen to exclude these effects from activating until after damage calculation. Divine Wrath is a counter trap that destroys an effect monster. That is why there is a difference. (I'm not sure what you are referring to with Rivalry of Warlords)
 
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Is there already a ruling for IFL on this? specifically refering to her being destroyed while defending? If so can you direct me to it...i can't seem to find it.

All of the effects mentioned are not activated but continuous (with the exception of BwC), and do not resolve but simply exist and apply when the right condition occurs. It seems like a provision made in order to prevent the destruction of the monster prior to Damage Calculation ending.

As for Rivalry, its effect is continuous and if a monster of a different type (than the one chosen) is flipped face-up, technically you would have to destroy it. However if it happens in the Damage Step, it lives until the end of Damage Step (if it is not already destroyed).

All in all, it could just be a Konami said so. I'm just curious as to what and why there is a difference.
 
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Okay, sorry wasn't thinking of that ruling. I do find it odd that all other Continuous Trap effects are applied immediately but that one gets to wait until after damage calculation. Anyway, the best I can explain is that the damage step ordinarily doesn't allow the processing of speed 1 effects until after calculation has resolved. That is why flip effects don't occur until after calculation, Spirit Reaper doesn't blow itself up when pumped by Rush Recklessly, Thunder Nyan Nyan doesn't blow herself up by another monster getting flipped, and Gearfried doesn't destroy Blast with Chain until after calculation.

Instead of IFL let's use Horus LV8 as the defender. Horus is attacked by BLS-Envoy, in the damage step Player A pumps BLS with Rush Recklessly, Player B chains with Horus to negate the spell, Player A chains Divine Wrath. Outcome is Horus is destroyed by Divine Wrath and BLS loses his attack target thus ending his attack, no replay and no second attack for BLS.
 
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Anyway, the best I can explain is that the damage step ordinarily doesn't allow the processing of speed 1 effects until after calculation has resolved.
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The unfortunate thing about that, is that if you take Spirit Reaper for example, the battle destruction immunity is also a Spell Speed 1 continuous effect and it applies before Damage Calculation, so why not the target destruction effect?

I do think it is important for all of us to realize that Divine Wrath is definately a card that will cause some changes and will definately present scenarios that previously didn't exist. The rulings seem, at best, to be about 60-70% right now, and will probably evolve and change of time. Its still early.

My personal opinion: The rules/rulings should be clarified and/or changed to state, that an attacker or defender should be able to be removed from the attack all the way up until Step 2 of Damage Calculation. Once in Step 2, you can no longer remove the the attacker or defender.

OR

Divine Wrath should be limited in some way to when you can use it. Maybe state that it cannot be activated during Damage Calculation. I realize this is not likely to happen, but it is an option.
 
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anthonyj said:
Okay, sorry wasn't thinking of that ruling.  I do find it odd that all other Continuous Trap effects are applied immediately but that one gets to wait until after damage calculation.  Anyway, the best I can explain is that the damage step ordinarily doesn't allow the processing of speed 1 effects until after calculation has resolved.  That is why flip effects don't occur until after calculation, Spirit Reaper doesn't blow itself up when pumped by Rush Recklessly, Thunder Nyan Nyan doesn't blow herself up by another monster getting flipped, and Gearfried doesn't destroy Blast with Chain until after calculation.
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I don't think this is correct.  According to the Card Registry here:

"5.  You can have face-down non-LIGHT monsters on your side of the field, "Thunder Nyan Nyan" will not be destroyed by her own effect, but if one of these monsters is flipped face-up, she will be destroyed."

"2.  "Thunder Nyan Nyan" can be destroyed by her own effect between steps in a chain. For example, the opponent targets your "Thunder Nyan Nyan" with "Snatch Steal". You chain "Call of the Haunted" to Special Summon "Dark Magician" from your Graveyard, a DARK monster. The chain resolves as follows: "Call of the Haunted" resolves, "Thunder Nyan Nyan" is destroyed because there is a DARK monster on the field, "Snatch Steal"'s effect disappears because the target is no longer on the field."

"1.  If you have a face-up "Thunder Nyan Nyan" and your Set "Penguin Soldier" is attacked, when it is flipped face-up "Thunder Nyan Nyan" will be destroyed, before it can be targeted by the effect of "Penguin Soldier". "

I believe this combination of rulings indicates that Thunder Nyan Nyan is destroyed as soon as a non-Light monster is face-up on her side of the field. 
 
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novastar said:
Anyway, the best I can explain is that the damage step ordinarily doesn't allow the processing of speed 1 effects until after calculation has resolved.
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The unfortunate thing about that, is that if you take Spirit Reaper for example, the battle destruction immunity is also a Spell Speed 1 continuous effect and it applies before Damage Calculation, so why not the target destruction effect?

I do think it is important for all of us to realize that Divine Wrath is definately a card that will cause some changes and will definately present scenarios that previously didn't exist. The rulings seem, at best, to be about 60-70% right now, and will probably evolve and change of time. Its still early.

My personal opinion: The rules/rulings should be clarified and/or changed to state, that an attacker or defender should be able to be removed from the attack all the way up until Step 2 of Damage Calculation. Once in Step 2, you can no longer remove the the attacker or defender.

OR

Divine Wrath should be limited in some way to when you can use it. Maybe state that it cannot be activated during Damage Calculation. I realize this is not likely to happen, but it is an option.
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Spirit Reaper's effect of not being destroyed in battle is a continuous effect it is in effect as soon as he is face up.  There is no time that Spirit Reaper would be vulnerable to being destroyed in battle with the exception of this effect being negated.  I know that the self-destruct because of targeting is also supposed to be a continuous effect however that is very muddy water.  It is a continuous effect that has to be triggered.  That is to say it is a continuous effect for purposes of it not being able to be chained to.  But for all intents and purposes it is a trigger effect.

The rulings for Thunder Nyan Nyan and Rivalry of Warlords are similar in when the cards will cause the destruction of the monster.  It doesn't happen until after damage calculation.

Divine Wrath is limited in some way.  It kills a monster when they activate an effect.  That is all the card does.  Granted it does what no other card was capable of doing previously so it will take time to get used to.

As another example of a monster being destroyed in step 2 of the damage step:
Player A Attacks Jinzo with Blue Eyes
Player B activates Rush Recklessly to pump Jinzo
Player A chains Magic Jammer
Player B chains Judgment of Anubis
chain resolves
Judgment of Anubis negates Magic Jammer and Player B selects Blue Eyes to be destroyed and inflicts 3000 damage to Player A
Rush Recklessly resolves and Jinzo is now 3100 ATK.
There is no damage calculation because Blue Eyes is no longer there.
 
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anthonyj said:
Divine Wrath is limited in some way. It kills a monster when they activate an effect. That is all the card does. Granted it does what no other card was capable of doing previously so it will take time to get used to.

As another example of a monster being destroyed in step 2 of the damage step:
Player A Attacks Jinzo with Blue Eyes
Player B activates Rush Recklessly to pump Jinzo
Player A chains Magic Jammer
Player B chains Judgment of Anubis
chain resolves
Judgment of Anubis negates Magic Jammer and Player B selects Blue Eyes to be destroyed and inflicts 3000 damage to Player A
Rush Recklessly resolves and Jinzo is now 3100 ATK.
There is no damage calculation because Blue Eyes is no longer there.
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2 Flaws in that example.

1) "Judgment of Anubis" only works against Spell cards, not Trap cards.
2) Neither "Judgment of Anubis" nor "Magic Jammer" could be activated since you're using "Jinzo" as your example.

- A
 
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I posted this exact same question about a week ago. I have also posted in on the UDE judges forum. I have yet to get a response back from it. This may be one of those scenarios where it will take a while to get an official ruling.  As of right now I am ruling that IFL dies and the owner loses the 2000 LP only.
 
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