Last Will and Priority // Levia Dragon

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soulwarrior

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Hi there,

a duelist from Germany came up with a very interesting idea:

-> play Last Will
--> now the card creates a 'state' // whenever a monster on your side of the field is sent to your graveyard, you can special summon another monster from your deck with ATK <= 1500

-> now offer a monster on your side of the field as a Tribute to special summon Levia-Dragon - Daedalus to the field

the question is:

Can I now use priority to use the effect of the Levia Dragon before a monster is special summoned due to the effect of Last Will?

Therefore, FIRST send all cards to the Grave except the Dragon. THEN special summon a monster with Last Will's effect. o_O

MY OPINION:

I thought no.
The 'state' created by Last Will can be compared with an continuous effect which is already on the field.
It doesn't use the chain and will be resolved BEFORE any other effect after the summon can be activated.

It's like when there's an already active Level Limit - Area B on the field and you summon Spell Canceller
-> FIRST apply the effect of the already active continuous Spell Card (switch SC to Defense Position)
-> THEN apply the effect of the summoned Spell Canceller (negate all Spell Cards effects)

soul :cool:
 
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Thanks for digging into this. So as long as no other definite ruling is published I will treat the LW-Effect as being optional and summon a monster AFTER wiping the field with Levia

lorric
 
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lorric said:
Thanks for digging into this. So as long as no other definite ruling is published I will treat the LW-Effect as being optional and summon a monster AFTER wiping the field with Levia
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Not quite. Immediately after the tribute summon, Last Will is ready to start a new chain should the turn player choose to use it.

If the turn player uses Last Will's effect, since Last Will's summoning effect goes on the chain, the turn player loses priority and the non-turn player may chain to LW's summoning effect.

If the turn player does not use Last Will's effect, they still have priority from Levia to send Umi and clear the field. However, now the turn player can not use Last Will's summoning effect until another monster goes from the turn player's side of the field to turn player's graveyard. (There appears to be some debate left here whether the effect is gone forever if not used at the first opportunity OR if the condition must just be met again. I'm for the just meet the condition again. )

In short, use Levia's effect immediately means the turn player missed out on Last Will's timing.

Use Last Will's effect means the non-turn player now has priority to chain (using Torrential, Ring, or whatever.)
 
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Since it's now clear that LW's effect uses the chain, the Levia Dragon question seems to be quite clear. :)

That means that I loose my chance to use LW's effect if I offer one monster as a Tribute to Tribute Summon Zaborg since Zaborg's effect automatically uses my Priority and therefore, the timing for LW is no longer correct and I can't activate this effect.

soul :cool:
 
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soulwarrior said:
Since it's now clear that LW's effect uses the chain, the Levia Dragon question seems to be quite clear. :)

That means that I loose my chance to use LW's effect if I offer one monster as a Tribute to Tribute Summon Zaborg since Zaborg's effect automatically uses my Priority and therefore, the timing for LW is no longer correct and I can't activate this effect.

soul :cool:
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You can NOT miss Last will's timing. It has already been activated.
 
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soulwarrior said:
Since it's now clear that LW's effect uses the chain, the Levia Dragon question seems to be quite clear. :)

That means that I loose my chance to use LW's effect if I offer one monster as a Tribute to Tribute Summon Zaborg since Zaborg's effect automatically uses my Priority and therefore, the timing for LW is no longer correct and I can't activate this effect.
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I'm not sure I'd go that far. The difference between Levia and Zaborg would be Zaborg's effect is mandatory. This could be compared to the Last Will-Monster Gate ruling. Last Will met it's condition and waits to start a new chain as Monster Gate *must* finish resolving it's effect. Of course, that is in the middle of a single card resolving, so Zaborg may be different than MG.

You bring up a good question. To expand, how far can Last Will's missed timing go?

1) Beyond the middle of a single card resolving? Yes.

2) After a tribute? Yes.

3) Tribute. New chain starts via a mandatory trigger (Zaborg) from the summoned monster. Can I get LW's effect after that chain?? Good question. I'd lean yes, but this is quite iffy. Nova, John, thoughts?

4) Tribute. New chain starts via an optional trigger from the summoned monster. Can I get LW's effect after that chain?? Tribute for Mobius -- if I destroy 1-2 S/T cards, can I still get LW's effect afterwards? I'd say no, but it's debateable.

4A) Tribute a monster with Monster Gate. I end up special summoning Dark Magician of Chaos. If I use DMOC's optional trigger spell card retrievel effect, can I then get LW's effect right afterwards?

5) After a tribute in which the turn player immediately uses an ignition effect (like Cannon Soldier, Catapult Turtle, Levia, etc...) This appears no.

I think we do have to keep Nova's statement that LW is a work in progress in mind. Obviously the Monster Gate ruling, in that LW is optional but can still start a new chain, breaks the (known :) )rules a bit in terms of timing. As such, I'd think the definitive answers are just as likely to come from a playability "that's how they wish the card to work" perspective as they are to come from mechanics.

It's been an interesting topic so far. :)
 
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MadHatter said:
I think we do have to keep Nova's statement that LW is a work in progress in mind. Obviously the Monster Gate ruling, in that LW is optional but can still start a new chain, breaks the (known :) )rules a bit in terms of timing. As such, I'd think the definitive answers are just as likely to come from a playability "that's how they wish the card to work" perspective as they are to come from mechanics.

It's been an interesting topic so far. :)
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The Monster gate ruling?
http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=3125

"Monster Gate's" effect resolves first, and then the state created by "Last Will" resolves. This means that you first pick up cards from the top of your deck to Special Summon via "Monster Gate's" effect, and then you can search your deck for a monster with an ATK of 1500 or less and Special Summon it to the field, since you have fulfilled the state created by "Last Will."
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The words CHAIN and ACTIVATE never appear in that answer. It says that the state created by last will resolves.

Last will is activated as a normal spell card; identical to Pot of Greed. It never activates again.

http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=2559
HOWEVER, please note that its rulings are not like "Peten the Dark Clown" or "Archfiend of Gilfer," because you've already activated "Last Will;" what activation timing is there to miss?
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After the tribute summon resolves, last will resolve, much the same as Level Limt Area B or Gravity Bind will resolve jsut after a (tribute) summon is performed.

Last will does not use the chain to resolve its state--Its a state--State's do not have spell speeds.
 
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Last will does not use the chain to resolve its state. Its a state. State's do not have spell-speeds.
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The current ruling (from Curtis posted by John) suggests that it is actually what is called a Delayed Trigger. It is waiting until the next instance of one of your monsters getting sent to the graveyard.

You can use funny term like "state" but it is not necessary. It sets a modifier in motion that will trigger the next time the event occurs, and is a normal trigger which uses the chain.

I think its quite evident that this card has flip flopped a few times and has changed over time. Which is why we have so much trouble with it.
 
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There was a post which stated that you can CHAIN to the LW effect...
IF you can chain to it, it has a Spell Speed...

Waiting for other posts.... ^^
As already stated: interesting discussion... :)

soul :cool:
 
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Thankfully, Mr. Ian Estrin has cleared this up. He was kind enough to answer my question. In an e-mail today I got this reply...

John,

You cannot choose when to activate the state based effect, as it will
trigger automatically the next time a monster is sent to the Graveyard.

Since Last Will is an optional effect, it's controller can choose to not
Special Summon a monster, but the state based effect will not reset.
Once it's condition has been met, that is the only chance you will have
that turn to Special Summon a monster.

The 4th paragraph is stating that the effect will expire at the end of
the turn if the condition of a monster being sent to the Graveyard was
not met during the turn.

Hope that clears things up,

Ian
 
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Thats very interesting John.

So it MUST be the next instance but you can choose not to use it, making it optional. Whether you do or not special summon the "state" will disappear aftet that.

hmmmmmm. Wonder what they will come up with next....
 
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Yes, I'm glad that it's cleared up!

I think we all learned something or another through this thread weather it be about Last Will, state based effects, or cards triggering and then starting a new chain.

Thank you all for your input, time, and attentions in this discussion.
 
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In summary. If you play Last Will and then tribute summon Levia Dragon you must choose whether to summon the monster for the effect of Last Will directly after the summon. This uses up the effect of Last Will and the state is no longer available later in the turn.
 
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Raigekick said:
Thanks anthonyj. LOL! This thread can be summarized into two sentences. :)
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YUP! It can be. If you only look at the summary though you'll miss the lesson in game mechanics. Last Will has something that is unusual, that being a state based effect. Learning the ins and outs of it give you something to base future rulings on. There may be few cards with a state based effect now, but who knows what the future will bring?

If you ever plan on testing for a L2 judge test or higher, it's important to not just know the individual card rulings but as well to understand why they're ruled the way they are. THAT, however, seems to be like a second job sometimes!
 
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