kansashoops
New Member
If Final Attack Orders is on the field and I hit my opponent's face down Legendary Jujitsu Master, is my monster still bounced, even though LJM is no longer in defense at the damage step?
Legendary Jujitsu Master & Final Attack Orders
- Thread starter kansashoops
- Start date
Well, in general the term "battle(s)" refers to an attack that has entered the Damage Step.
An effect with the wording can generally apply at any point throughout the Damage Step, not just Damage Calculation.
As with anything in YGO, there might be exceptions, but as a general idea thats it. When the effect applies depends on what the effect states. I will search for some exceptions and post them.
The term "attack(s)" is generally used for the Battle Step.
An effect with the wording can generally apply at any point throughout the Damage Step, not just Damage Calculation.
As with anything in YGO, there might be exceptions, but as a general idea thats it. When the effect applies depends on what the effect states. I will search for some exceptions and post them.
The term "attack(s)" is generally used for the Battle Step.
Hyper Hammerhead looks like it determines Battle based on Damage Calculation being completed. Wall of Illusion only requires the attack by card text but I believe the effect triggers after damage calculation so this also could cause questions with regards to Sasuke Samurai and Drillroid as well.
I'm still leaning towards the damage calculation needing to be completed in order for the effect to trigger. But I can't seem to find anything concrete to support that.
I'm still leaning towards the damage calculation needing to be completed in order for the effect to trigger. But I can't seem to find anything concrete to support that.
exiledforcefreak
RIP Jacob KT 2/16/06
Sangan says sent from field to the grave, nothing about doing battle there
Sasuke Samurai destroys a monster with his effect by attacking, it does not do battle. This is why Mystic Swordsman LV2 can not be leveled up by it's own effect when it destroys a monster in face down defense position
Wall of Illusions text is ambigous because it is an old card. However, based on the first line alone you would assume that the attacking monster never reaches damage calculation and is returned as soon at the atack decleration is made. The second line clearly contradicts the first and says the monster makes it to damage calculation. This leads us to the conclusion that since both the conditions of the first line (the monster is attacking) and the second line (the monsters are in the damage calculation) have been met it is during damage calculation the effect of Wall of Illusion takes place.
Hyper Hammerhead is pretty straitforward in that is says "at the end of the damage step". If, at the end of the damage step, the opponent's monster isn't destroyed, return it to it's owner's hand.
There is a differance between "attacking"/"attack"/"attacks" and "battle" and I think people are getting the two mixed up.
Sasuke Samurai destroys a monster with his effect by attacking, it does not do battle. This is why Mystic Swordsman LV2 can not be leveled up by it's own effect when it destroys a monster in face down defense position
Wall of Illusions text is ambigous because it is an old card. However, based on the first line alone you would assume that the attacking monster never reaches damage calculation and is returned as soon at the atack decleration is made. The second line clearly contradicts the first and says the monster makes it to damage calculation. This leads us to the conclusion that since both the conditions of the first line (the monster is attacking) and the second line (the monsters are in the damage calculation) have been met it is during damage calculation the effect of Wall of Illusion takes place.
Hyper Hammerhead is pretty straitforward in that is says "at the end of the damage step". If, at the end of the damage step, the opponent's monster isn't destroyed, return it to it's owner's hand.
There is a differance between "attacking"/"attack"/"attacks" and "battle" and I think people are getting the two mixed up.
What I was saying is that Battle is referenced for Hyper Hammerhead and the rulings state that it triggers after Damage Calculation. Wall of Illussion says its effect triggers by "Attack" so the same question could be asked in regards to whether it would get it's effect if attacked by Drillroid. It is actually kind of surprising this question hasn't come up before now.
exiledforcefreak
RIP Jacob KT 2/16/06
anthonyj said:
there are two substeps to damage calculation
-calulate damage calculation
-apply damage calculation
in regards to Drillroid:
Drillroid's ability triggers during the calculation portion of damage calculation as it clearly states "without applying damage calculation"
since you don't apply damage calculation I would rule that Wall of Illusion does not cause Drillroid to to return to it's owner's hand
I highly doubt that...exiledforcefreak said:
I think the general idea here is that once you enter the Damage Step, you will complete as much of it as you can.
Just because Damage Calculation does not occur, does not mean that the subsequent steps afterwards are ignored.
However, the real reason WoI doesn't work is for the same reason D.D. Warrior Lady's doesn't.
"If "Drillroid" attacks a Defense Position "D.D. Warrior Lady", the effect of "D.D. Warrior Lady" does not activate, because she has been destroyed by the effect of "Drillroid" by the time her effect would normally activate."
The main difference with WoI and an effect like Jujitstu Master is "what" triggers them and "when".
Based on the first ruling of LJM it seems to suggest that simply entering the Damage Step is enough to trigger the effect, as it will activate and resolve no matter what happens to it along the way. Conversely, WoI and D.D. seem to trigger after/during DC and must be present at the time.
John Danker
Administrator
We're back to defining "Battle" again as to if just entering the damage step is enoubh to trigger the effect of LJM
Yes, the term "battle" does refer, in general, to an attack that has entered the Damage Step.
Each effect though is independant as to when and what triggers it, and they can occur at any point throughout the Damage Step. It all depends on text and ruling.
I think based on the first ruling, that LJM only need be face-up at the beginning of the Damage Step, for it's effect to trigger. What happens to it after that is irrelevent. Just initial thoughts though.
Each effect though is independant as to when and what triggers it, and they can occur at any point throughout the Damage Step. It all depends on text and ruling.
I think based on the first ruling, that LJM only need be face-up at the beginning of the Damage Step, for it's effect to trigger. What happens to it after that is irrelevent. Just initial thoughts though.
masterwoo0
NINJA4LIFE
And I really dont see what the difference between "Battle" and "Attack" is.
Main Entry: battle
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): bat·tled; bat·tling /'bat-li[ng], 'ba-t&l-i[ng]/
intransitive senses
1 : to engage in battle : FIGHT
2 : to contend with full strength, vigor, skill, or resources : STRUGGLE
transitive senses
1 : to fight against
2 : to force (as one's way) by battling
- bat·tler /-l&r, 'ba-t&l-&r/ noun
Main Entry: at·tack
Pronunciation: &-'tak
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle French attaquer, from (assumed) Old Italian estaccare to attach, from stacca stake, of Germanic origin; akin to Old English staca
transitive senses
1 : to set upon or work against forcefully
2 : to assail with unfriendly or bitter words
3 : to begin to affect or to act on injuriously
4 : to set to work on
5 : to threaten (a piece in chess) with immediate capture
intransitive senses : to make an attack
Attacking is to do Battle. I really dont think our guys in Iraq see Battling and Attacking any differently.
The only really significance between the two is Battle is usually seen as a something that occurs on a much "broader" scale, while an Attack can be looked at as a singular event taking place.
You can have many Attacks within a Battle, but it is less Appropriate to say I had many Battles within a Attack.
And the main point about Sasuke Samurai vs Sangan was not to illustrate whether or not he gets his effect from being destroyed in Battle, it was to show that Battle was initiated, then Sangan was determined to be destroyed in the Damage Step by Effect, so you do not proceed to Damage Calculation.
Main Entry: battle
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): bat·tled; bat·tling /'bat-li[ng], 'ba-t&l-i[ng]/
intransitive senses
1 : to engage in battle : FIGHT
2 : to contend with full strength, vigor, skill, or resources : STRUGGLE
transitive senses
1 : to fight against
2 : to force (as one's way) by battling
- bat·tler /-l&r, 'ba-t&l-&r/ noun
Main Entry: at·tack
Pronunciation: &-'tak
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle French attaquer, from (assumed) Old Italian estaccare to attach, from stacca stake, of Germanic origin; akin to Old English staca
transitive senses
1 : to set upon or work against forcefully
2 : to assail with unfriendly or bitter words
3 : to begin to affect or to act on injuriously
4 : to set to work on
5 : to threaten (a piece in chess) with immediate capture
intransitive senses : to make an attack
Attacking is to do Battle. I really dont think our guys in Iraq see Battling and Attacking any differently.
The only really significance between the two is Battle is usually seen as a something that occurs on a much "broader" scale, while an Attack can be looked at as a singular event taking place.
You can have many Attacks within a Battle, but it is less Appropriate to say I had many Battles within a Attack.
And the main point about Sasuke Samurai vs Sangan was not to illustrate whether or not he gets his effect from being destroyed in Battle, it was to show that Battle was initiated, then Sangan was determined to be destroyed in the Damage Step by Effect, so you do not proceed to Damage Calculation.
This is not about dictionary, or real world definitions of the two terms.
It's about the templating used by Konami in these effects, and in general...
- When they say "attack(s)" they are refering to when an attack is declared, hense the Battle Step.
- When they say "battle(s)" it is an effect that triggers/activates as a result of something in or an attack entering the Damage Step.
Remember this is just a generalization, i'm implying that there might be some variations/exceptions, as there always is with YGO.
It's about the templating used by Konami in these effects, and in general...
- When they say "attack(s)" they are refering to when an attack is declared, hense the Battle Step.
- When they say "battle(s)" it is an effect that triggers/activates as a result of something in or an attack entering the Damage Step.
Remember this is just a generalization, i'm implying that there might be some variations/exceptions, as there always is with YGO.
Where are we getting the definition for templating based on enterring the Damage Step? Every other card I can find that referrences Battle in any context refers to successfully completing Damage Calculation or is a boost that kicks in for Damage Calculation.
No, i'm saying that you cannot restrict the definition of the term "battle" to Damage Calculation only... it is, in a general sense as a whole, an entire Damage Step related term. When, where and how the effect applies, is based on the rest of the text and rulings.
For example, IF hypothetically, you were to somehow skip DC (without either monster being destroyed in any other way) in a battle involving D.D. Warrior Lady, her effect would still activate.
For example, IF hypothetically, you were to somehow skip DC (without either monster being destroyed in any other way) in a battle involving D.D. Warrior Lady, her effect would still activate.
Got ya. The more I look through some of the other cards that have the same general wording the more convinced I am that we will probably see LJM assigned timing pretty identical to Kangaroo Champ, Hyper Hammerhead, D.D. Warrior Lady, that is to say that Drillroid, Sasuke Samurai and such will be immune because "Battle" didn't wind up occurring.
But it would make the game more interesting to get a different timing ruling for him.
But it would make the game more interesting to get a different timing ruling for him.
Dillie-O
Council of Heroes
Here's one that I think bypasses damage calculation, the good 'ol "Funky Finger"
Kiseitai
Effect Monster (Fiend / DARK / 2 Stars / ATK 300 / DEF 800)
When your opponent's monster attacks this card in face-down Defense Position, this card becomes an Equip Spell Card equipped to the attacking monster (No damage calculation is conducted). During each of your opponent's Standby Phases, increase your Life Points by half of the ATK of the monster equipped with this card.
Now there's no way in heck that Kiseitai and LJM will go against each other in battle, but will it help for examining the concept of going through battle without damage calculation?
The jury is still out in my mind...I'm reading up on things and trying to remember the scenario we had at the regional...oh yeah, Airknight attacking an LJM, how to resolve the effects. I believe we ruled it that LJM bounced Airknight and then the controller of Airknight still got to draw the card, since the effects were on a chain and Airknight doesn't have to stay face up in order to get its effect. Maybe that helps.
Kiseitai
Effect Monster (Fiend / DARK / 2 Stars / ATK 300 / DEF 800)
When your opponent's monster attacks this card in face-down Defense Position, this card becomes an Equip Spell Card equipped to the attacking monster (No damage calculation is conducted). During each of your opponent's Standby Phases, increase your Life Points by half of the ATK of the monster equipped with this card.
Now there's no way in heck that Kiseitai and LJM will go against each other in battle, but will it help for examining the concept of going through battle without damage calculation?
The jury is still out in my mind...I'm reading up on things and trying to remember the scenario we had at the regional...oh yeah, Airknight attacking an LJM, how to resolve the effects. I believe we ruled it that LJM bounced Airknight and then the controller of Airknight still got to draw the card, since the effects were on a chain and Airknight doesn't have to stay face up in order to get its effect. Maybe that helps.
John Danker
Administrator
Airknight's effect would trigger at damage calculation and the attacking player would draw before Legendary Jujitsu Master's effect activated at the end of the damage step.
Dillie-O
Council of Heroes
That's right, silly me. I forgot that's what I was thinking, but it was ruled otherwise. 8^D
Interestingly enough, my inbox just got hit up with 2 or 3 rulings on the LJM issue, one being Airknight and one being D.D. Warrior Lady. It seems to me that LJM has to reach the end of the damage calculation step in order to get its effect. So in the DDWL VS LJM rumble, DDWL will remove both monsters before LJM's effect has a chance to activate. Interesting indeed.
Interestingly enough, my inbox just got hit up with 2 or 3 rulings on the LJM issue, one being Airknight and one being D.D. Warrior Lady. It seems to me that LJM has to reach the end of the damage calculation step in order to get its effect. So in the DDWL VS LJM rumble, DDWL will remove both monsters before LJM's effect has a chance to activate. Interesting indeed.