Morphing Jar #2 Returning Fusion Monsters to the Deck

Digital Jedi

Digital Jedi

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http://www.pojo.biz/board//threads/262308

I'm pretty sure this hasn't been brought up here before. A member on Pojo asked if Morphing Jar #2 returns Fusion Monsters to the Fusion Deck, then do they count towards the number of monsters to be summoned by MJ2's effect?
He got one reply from a Level 1 stating that they did not count towards the number of monsters. So far I'm the only one who challenged it.

Now, the guy PMd me stating his Reasonings. As you know, Pojo will likely lock the thread if we try to discuss it there. But I PM'd him back mentioning that I would bring the subject up here and invited him to drop by and participate if he so chooses.

Honestly, I disagree with him. But niether one of us can find a Judges List message for one way or the other. But maybe I'm missing something. Thoughts?
 
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The way I'm looking at it the fusion deck is a separate entity than the deck itself, call it main deck for the time being). Morphing Jar #2's effect is only counting cards that go to the main deck, not the main and fusion deck.

I believe it comes down to a point of terminology and that's why I see it as such. Its another one of those old cards that didn't have the full ramifications of its text understood at the time 8^D
 
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Well, I mentioned in our discussion that I view it the way Chain Dissapearance is ruled. Now it's only refrencing the one deck in this instance, yet it still seeks out the deck the monster came from. It still uses the Fusion Deck as refrence. I personally don't see why it wouldn't count, but again, I may be missing something.
 
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I don't really think that Chain Dissapearance will apply to this situation as CD is basically looking for a specific name of the monsters. Remember that MJ#2 counts the number of monsters which are returned to the deck, so if there was a monster such as a token it would not count it towards the total of cards. meaning that Fusion monsters aren't returned to the DECK, but to the FUSION DECK.
 
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In the case of Chain Disappearance, it doesnt immediately reference the monsters originating location until its time to remove from play the rest of its kind.

I dont think it necessarily matters that it doesnt come from the main deck in this circumstance. "Whatever" Deck it came from is the Deck the remaining monsters will be removed from.

With Morphing Jar #2, since you cannot pick up cards from your Fusion Deck and summon them, it would only make sense (maybe not "Yugioh" Logic-wise) that the Fusion Deck would not be included in Morphing Jar #2's effect.
 
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Cropz said:
'Chain Destruction' affects the Fusion Deck because that's the Fusion Monsters' "Deck", and the only place there could be any copies of the monster, it never affects both "decks" at the same time.
'Morphing Jar #2' only counts Monsters returned to the actual "Main Deck".
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That's not a good argument for why Morphing Jar #2's effect only works on the Main Deck because the effect only says "Deck". There arent any effects that I know of that specifically state "Main Deck". While there are plenty that target "Fusion Deck". Unless the "Deck" will always be a default for what is known as your "Main Deck", then that is the only way it works, but then that would mean that Chain Disappearance and Chain Destruction don't work on the Fusion Deck.

I defer back to the argument I provided that you cannot pickup cards from your Fusion Deck and Special Summon them. Fusion Monsters can only be Special Summoned by an effect that allows you to summon a Fusion Monster. Morphing Jar #2 does not provide for that, so any monster returned to your Fusion Deck would not allow you to "pick up a card" and summon from there, unlike Chain Disappearance, where if a Fusion Monster is summoned that fits the activation requirement, your opponent must remove all same cards from play.

This would be similar to trying to activate Machine Duplication on a Fusion Monster to Special Summon 2 more Fusion's. You cant do it because even though the card says Special Summon from your "Deck", you cannot use the effect of Machine Duplication to Special Summon Fusion Monsters.
 
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They aren't exceptions. They do what they do because that's their effect. Why would that make them an exception?

"Deck" is not defined as Main Deck. But since you cannot Special Summon from your "Side Deck", nor use the effect of Sangan to search your Side Deck or Fusion Deck (because Fusion Monster's can never go to hand), nor Special Summon a monster by the effect of a Mystic Tomato from your Fusion Deck or Side Deck, each time "Deck" is mentioned, you have to take into account what your limitations are:

1. Can NEVER pick up from your Fusion Deck
2. Can NEVER pick up from Side Deck
3. Can NEVER Special Summon from Side Deck
4. Can NEVER search Side Deck
5. Can NEVER search Fusion Deck
6. Can NOT use an effect that can only Special Summon Fusions, to Special Summon a monster from your Main Deck
7. Can NOT use an effect that can only Special Summon a Monster that is not a Fusion, from your Fusion Deck

I'm sure there are more limits, but the point is, Deck is not restricted to "Main Deck" by default. It is restricted by the limits that are bound to the effect in use at the time "Deck" is referenced.
 
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Woo0, if I'm reading your posts correctly, it would seem to me that your stating that one cannot search th Fusion Deck for Morphing Jar #2. However, I don't see what that would have to do with not counting the number of monsters returned to the Deck.

Tokens do not count for the number of monsters you can Special Summon for one reason only. Because when they attempt to "return" to Deck, they cease to the exists when they leave the field. So since nothing returns to the deck, then nothing gets counted.

On the other hand, when a Fusion attempts to return to the Deck, for some strange reason it returns to the Deck it originated from. Game Mechanics, I presume.

So for what reason, do we not count the Fusion Monsters as the number of monster's that were retruned to the deck?
FLIP: Return all Monster Cards on the field to their respective Decks and shuffle them.
Click to expand...
So in this sentence, the Fusion Deck is a perfectly acceptable location to send the Fusion Monster, because it uses the word "respective".
You and your opponent then pick up cards until you both have the same number of Monster Cards that were returned to each Deck.
Click to expand...
So now we're picking up cards based on the number of monsters returned to "each deck". Why does the Fusion Deck count as a legitimate location for returning monsters, but not as legitimate location for calculating how many monster to pick up? So far none of the arguments given have addressed why one is acceptable and the other is not.
 
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I still think it falls back to the fact that you cannot ever pick up cards from your Fusion Deck, so it would almost follow the same frame of thinking when returning Tokens.

The only thing that will ever exist in your Fusion Deck IS monsters. No Spells or Traps. Can you imagine what would happen if you used the effect of Magical Scientist to Special Summon 4 Fusion Monsters and attacked a Morphing Jar #2?

Why wouldnt you then be able to return 4 Fusions to the field? Well, we already know why, but you are only returning one monster that can initiate a "pick up", because you cannot pick up from a Fusion Deck. Im sure if you could pick up from a Fusion Deck, that would make the situation I created with the 4 Fusion's interesting....
 
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I for one don't consider the "Fusion Deck" an instance of a "Deck", I know this sounds redundat, but there are sections of the game or in this case "mat" which can be part of the game but not considered into diverse mechanics of the game.

For instance the "Field Zone", it is not considered part of the s/t zone but it's still affected by effects of cards, but you don't consider the Field Zone part of the s/t zone.

For me Fusion Deck is Fusion Deck and that's it, Deck = Main Deck. The reason for Chain Destruction/Dissapearance whatever, to work with Fusion Deck's, is just the point I made earlier, those 2 cards affect a specific name of a card and it will search it regardless, because the Fusion Deck is still part of the mat.
 
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I still think your misunderstanding me, Woo0. I never insinuated you could pick up cards from your Fusion Deck. The text on Morphing Jar #2 doesn't even insinuate that. That's not even remotely what I'm saying.

In fact the Decks have nothing to do with determining how many monster get picked up. The number of monsters returned to the deck are what determine that.

In the case that you have one Fusion and two Effect Monsters on the field and Morphing Jar #2 is flipped, three monsters get returned to their "respective decks".

Now your supposed to pick up cards until you have the same number of monsters that were returned to "each deck"

I don't see what picking up cards from the Fusion Deck has to do with that. I don't want to pick up cards from my Fusion Deck. I want to pick up cards from my Main Deck until I have the same number of monsters that were returned to "each deck". I returned 3 monsters to "each deck". I satisfied that portion of the effect. I should be able to pick up cards from my Main Deck until I have three monsters.
 
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You just answered your own question. How many cards did you send back to the deck you are picking up from? In the case of the Fusion Scenario I presented, I sent Magical Scientist back to my main deck, and 4 Fusions back to my Fusion Deck.

Now, since I can only pick up cards from my Main Deck, I only sent one card back to the only deck I can legally pick up cards from.

I believe that as long as you can pick up cards from a deck, you can include that "Deck" as part of Morphing Jar #2's effect.

You cant pick up Fusion's. So, you cant count them as returnable cards for Morphing Jar #2's effect.
 
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JERP files:

If a fusion monster on the field returns to "the fusion deck" of that owner. The fusion monster which returns to the fusion deck is not counted as a monster which is added to the deck.
 
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I believe I stated that the deck is not the determing factor when deciding how many monsters to pick up. I said the number of monsters that get returned to the deck are the determing factor.

So Fusions are legitimate for one part of the effect, but not the other? I can satisfy one portion of the effect fully, but not the other even though the other depends on satisfying the one portion of the effect? I don't see the logic.
 
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