necrofear against manticore of darkness

D

daydreamer

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If I remove 3 fiend monsters to special summon darknecrofear and my oppenent response torrential tribute ...
all monsters are destroyed, and then i end my turn, what happens if my oppenent discards a beast type monster to special summon manticore from the grave (effect manticore), but i have the effect of necrofear also in the endphase

what comes first ???
 
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It's the turn players choice. Since in this question you're the turn player, you can choose which effect happens first, just say to them "It's my end phase, I'm choosing to allow you to activate Manticore's effect." and force them to activate the effect of Manticore of Darkness, of course, they can choose not to activate it, in which both monsters stay in the graveyard. But the end result would be that Manticore is special summoned and then Necrofear returns taking control of him if this scenerio were to be played out correctly.

If it was his turn and Necrofear was destroyed at the same time as his Manticore, he could do the very same thing to you, force you to activate Necrofear's effect first then after her effect fizzles (granted if there is no monsters on the field) then he can special summon Manticore of Darkness onto the field and the turn will then continue to end.

Remember that the turn player always has "priority" over effects.
 
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According to Netrep: http://www.netrep.net/content/view/50/38/

[tt]
Rules & FAQS - Advanced Gameplay FAQs
Simultaneous Effects
Added June 2004

If both players have simultaneous effects being activated, then the "turn player" (the player taking his/her turn) automatically has his/her effect become Step 1 of the chain. The turn player has no choice but to be Step 1 of the chain, although if he/she has multiple effects being activated, he/she does choose which of those effects is Step 1.
[/tt]

I hope this helps.
 
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:-o thx, but the second question then is, are both effects simultan ones?

a [glow=red,2,300]official[/glow] statement would be nice  :wink:

:mrgreen:[glow=red,2,300] day [/glow] :ar15:
 
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Raijinili said:
That's not exactly applicable.  That refers to triggered effects.  I believe it's more similar to Imperial Order and Mirage of Nightmares.
Click to expand...

That's what I told him too.

Although this Ruling is quite new to me... it makes sense...
So the Turn Player can say, he doesn't want to use his Priority
... kk.. read the rest in helpoemers post!
I trust him, he has always posted the correct answer so far!!!

soul
 
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But I have been wrong on occasions, lol. I could be wrong in this case, but that's how I've always understood simultaneous effects to be. The turn player had the choice of which effect took place first, and with that in mind then could choose that the opponent has to activate Manticore of Darkness and bring him back first and then he could choose to activate Dark Necrofear's effect.

It's my opinion that what Raigekick posted pertains to more or less the Mirage/Imperial situation, or other similar situations, those are chainable processes.

But Manticore and Necrofear's effects are triggered effects that activate in the end phase, there is no real action that can be chained to. The End phase is also more complex then most people put onto be, even though it's not broken up into steps, there are situations where discarding in the end phase due to too many cards and other effects cannot be activated (I believe it was Super Rejuvenation and dragons or something like that). Because the discarding is considered the last "step" in the End Phase. We should really create steps for the End Phase, lol, that way this wouldn't be too hard to explain.
 
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I'd really appreciate some more clarification on actions in the End Phase since you can't count cards discarded because of hand-size for Super Rejuvenation but you "can" activate Manticore of Darkness effect if it is discarded in the end phase due to hand-size. Can someone explain the logic there?
 
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anthonyj said:
I'd really appreciate some more clarification on actions in the End Phase since you can't count cards discarded because of hand-size for Super Rejuvenation but you "can" activate Manticore of Darkness effect if it is discarded in the end phase due to hand-size. Can someone explain the logic there?
Click to expand...

I asked the exact same question to the judge's list a couple of days ago. Still awaiting an answer for it.

- A
 
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densetsu_x said:
anthonyj said:
I'd really appreciate some more clarification on actions in the End Phase since you can't count cards discarded because of hand-size for Super Rejuvenation but you "can" activate Manticore of Darkness effect if it is discarded in the end phase due to hand-size. Can someone explain the logic there?
Click to expand...

I asked the exact same question to the judge's list a couple of days ago. Still awaiting an answer for it.

- A
Click to expand...

Well, I got an answer... or rather a non-answer.

Officially from the UDE FAQ, Manticore of Darkness' effect can activate if it was discarded due to excess cards during the end phase. Officially, there is no "official" ruling on "Super Rejuvination" at the moment. So officially why is there a difference?

"Because that's the way the judges ruled."
(From the netrep AARJ: Cards discarded because of excess hand size do not count for the purpose of "Super Rejuvenation".) So for now just follow that until something else official comes along.

My own theories as to why this is the case? 1) Spell and trap cards must have their effects fully resolved before the discard due to excess. 2) Cards like Manticore of Darkness and Night Assailant activate their effects on their own and not due to some other card activating them. 3) Fluctuations of the lunar gravitational pull on our tides.

- Andrew

P.S. Officially, the other comment I received in regards to this was "People are playing with Super Rejuvenation???????????"
 
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LOL :D.

Okay, well somebody had to play Super Rejuvenation and I drew the short straw that day. I still think I got off better than the guy who had to play test Woodland Sprite. :cry:

Okay, then "Officially" I can summon another Peten because he is not on the UDE FAQ when I use him to tribute summon my (fill in card above level 4 here)?

Manticore doesn't activate on his own, you have to send a beast to go and get him. Super Rejuvenation and Night Assailant both work on their own with no user intervention. I'm leaning heavily toward #3, I told them basing the game on the ravings of a mad monk sealed in a wine barrel would lead to confusion.

Thanks Andrew.
 
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"Officially" there was a statement from Kevin about "Peten the Dark Clown"'s effect... I posted the link in another message when someone ased about it earlier... if you search through the message boards, you should find it.

- Andrew
 
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I know the statement, I've read it. I am just trying to get to the why part of it. The answer was because it is an optional effect just like the ruling on Butterfly Dagger Elma "Because "Butterfly Dagger - Elma"'s effect is optional, "Butterfly Dagger - Elma" being sent to the Graveyard has to be the very last thing that happened in order for you to activate its effect. So if it is destroyed in the middle of a chain, you cannot return it to your hand. Example: If Player A activates "Pot of Greed", and Player B chains "Mystical Space Typhoon" to destroy "Butterfly Dagger - Elma" during the chain, it cannot return to the owner's hand." Also referrenced was Pinch Hopper "Because "Pinch Hopper"'s effect is optional, "Pinch Hopper" being sent to the Graveyard has to be the very last thing that happened in order for you to activate its effect. So if you Tribute "Pinch Hopper", you cannot activate "Pinch Hopper"'s effect because the last thing that happened was the Tribute Summon or the effect you Tributed "Pinch Hopper" for." However according to Pinch Hopper If you offer "Pinch Hopper" as a Tribute to attack with "Insect Queen", you can resolve "Pinch Hopper"'s effect after attack declaration. So Pinch Hopper when used as a "cost" for Insect Queen gets its effect, we're getting grayer here. This explanation hinges on the word "When" and the effect being "optional". Well the Searchers are also "optional" and also say "when" but we resolve them differently.
 
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