Optional trigger effect Vs. Multi-trigger effect

exiledforcefreak

RIP Jacob KT 2/16/06
I'm still very confused on how to determine if a card is a optional trigger or multi-trigger effect

example, if both witch of the black forest and peten the dark clown are both optional trigger effects...
then why does witch of the black forest initiate a new chain after the current chain resolves while peten the dark clown loses it's timing?

reminder, I'm asking how to figure out the differance, not just an explanation of the example given.
 
As far as I know, "Witch of the Black Forest" is NOT an optional effect. Her card text is very clear:
"When this card is sent from the field to the Graveyard, select 1 monster with a DEF of 1500 or less from your Deck, show it to your opponent, and add it to your hand."

Nowhere in there does it contain the word 'can'. It doesn't say "you CAN select 1 monster...". It simply says "select 1 monster", that to me is NOT optional, it is mandatory.

"Peten the Dark Clown":
"When this card is sent to your Graveyard, you can remove this card from the Graveyard to Special Summon 1 "Peten the Dark Clown" from your hand or Deck."

Now here we see the word 'can'. That's the key to the optional trigger, as far as I know. I'm sure novastar has some nice formula template type thing somewhere he'll post that explains better than I can.

Hope that's what you were looking for..
 
skey23 said:
As far as I know, "Witch of the Black Forest" is NOT an optional effect. Her card text is very clear:
"When this card is sent from the field to the Graveyard, select 1 monster with a DEF of 1500 or less from your Deck, show it to your opponent, and add it to your hand."

Nowhere in there does it contain the word 'can'. It doesn't say "you CAN select 1 monster...". It simply says "select 1 monster", that to me is NOT optional, it is mandatory.

Yeah but Konami typed in the same thing for the level cards; Armed Dragon, Horus, Silent and Mystic Swordsman. Which confused me when they made the Dragon's Roar Structure, but they stated that it was an optional effect.
 
Blaze said:
Yeah but Konami typed in the same thing for the level cards; Armed Dragon, Horus, Silent and Mystic Swordsman. Which confused me when they made the Dragon's Roar Structure, but they stated that it was an optional effect.
Yeah, I'm confused on that one too, cause it doesn't fit the 'optional' template thing that I'm sure we'll see sometime tomorrow when novastar graces us with his wisdom and templating skillz...;).

what else is there to say but.....Konami ga sou itterukara!!!!
 
skey23 said:
Yeah, I'm confused on that one too, cause it doesn't fit the 'optional' template thing that I'm sure we'll see sometime tomorrow when novastar graces us with his wisdom and templating skillz...;).

what else is there to say but.....Konami ga sou itterukara!!!!
The girl I work with will be happy that the phrase is spreading, she's helping to spread some of her culture! :)
 
ok, you right, bad example. But the question remains, how does one determine if a card is mutli-trigger or optional trigger. Injection Fairy lily is Muti-trigger but can only be activated in response to an attack...
 
Trigger effects are apell speed 1 can only chain with the simultaneuos effect rule.

Multi-triggers are spell speed 2 and may chain to other effects (Excluding counter-traps of course.).
 
yes, I know that. But how do I determine, without the use of a list, if a monster is considered multi-trigger or optional trigger. Injection Fairy lily is multi-trigger, the reason I know this is because I read it a memorized it. However, not knowing this information it's not entirely clear because Injection Fairy Lily's effect can only be activated in response to an attack. Understand my question now?
 
Most Multi-Trigger monsters have conditions to activate their effects, usually stated as part of the effect. For example, Lily states only while she is in battle (or similar). Dark Paladin can only negate Spell Cards (so you can't just discard. You can only use his effect when your opponent plays a Spell Card), etc.
Strike Ninja is one of the very few Multi-Trigger monsters that has no condition to activate. They are, however, very clear about when you can activate it (which includes during your opponent's turn).

As a general rule, a Multi-Trigger monster will have a condition applied to it or if it doesn't, will explicitly state that it may be used during your opponent's turn. If it doesn't, it is most likely an ignition effect.

As for regular trigger versus Multi-Trigger, a regular trigger effect WILL trigger. Witch of the Black Forest states 'When (blah) then (blah) happens.' Similarly, there are the optional triggers 'When (blah) then you may (blah).'
Multi-Trigger effects usually involve some sort of cost. So not only must the condition be fulfilled, but if you want to use the effect, you have to do something else. Injection Fairy Lily must be involved in an attack, but that is not enough for her effect. If you want her to gain 3000 ATK, you must pay (do something) to do it. Using my brilliant templating scheme (yeah, there's some irony there), it would be 'When (blah), then you may (blah) if you pay (blah).'

Unfortunately, even using these general guidelines, there can be exceptions. This is due to either poor templating or miscommunication about the card.
 
I think skey23 is talking about novastar's much awaited article about Text Templates in YGO, which will help determine, in first glance, on what kind of effect a card has (Trigger, Multi-Trigger, Targeting, etc..)
 
Ok here comes a loooong one. I think it's also important to note that we should all understand that templating is poor in this game, and not everything fits into this.

A quick comparison. Multi-Triggers and Optional Triggers or like brothers, Multi being the bigger brother, and Optional being the younger brother.

The main difference between the two is that one is Spell Speed 2 (Multi-Triggers) and the other is Spell Speed 1....that's it...

Examples:

Optional Trigger

Peten the Dark Clown
"When this card is sent to your Graveyard, you can remove this card from the Graveyard to Special Summon 1 "Peten the Dark Clown" from your hand or Deck."

He is a great example because he includes all the possibilities, a trigger, a choice to activate, a cost and the correct template.

The blue indicates the event that Triggers it. Since these effects are Spell Speed 1, they only respond to actions/events that are either non-chainable (ie. a Summon) or after an effect resolution (Chain resolution) or being present in a Phase/Step (ie. During the Standby Phase). However, just like Multi-Trigger's you MUST directly respond to the event (Trigger), or you have missed timing.

The green indicates a cost for the effect. This is optional to these effects, and may or may not exist. In the event that it does have a cost, it is outlined here.

The red indicates the effect portion of the text. Targeting can also be outlined here as well (ie. Mobius the Frost Monarch).

The you can is the second Trigger (as obscure as it may be), in which you make a choice to respond/activate the effect. This is what makes the effect a sort of Spell Speed 1 Multi-Trigger, it is the event-response nature to it.

Multi-Trigger

Dark Paladin
"As long as this card remains face-up on the field, you can negate the activation of 1 Spell Card and destroy the Spell Card by discarding 1 card from your hand."

For text saving space and gramatical purposes in the case of Multi-Triggers the Trigger is usually embedded inside the effect text. You can see this with the blue Trigger text inside the red effect text.

Although the order might be different in this case all of the ingredients are there:

- A Trigger (event)
- The "you can" optional text indicating and optional response (second Trigger)
- A cost
- Effect text

Of course as with Optional Triggers, a cost does not have to be present. Unfortunately the templating is even less consistant with Multi-Triggers than it is with Optionals. So i'm using Dark Paladin because it most closely illustrates the relationship between Multi-Triggers and Optional Triggers.

Because these effects are Spell Speed 2, they generally are geared to respond to card/effect activations, and are mostly for countering purposes much like Counter Traps. They also are permitted to be manually activated/used at times when Spell Speed 1's would not, like the Battle Phase. They must, of course, respond directly to the event that they counter, or be activated during a specific activation window (ie. Injection Fairy Lily).

Multi-Triggers that do not have a specific timing, essentially can be manually activated to start new chains or respond to any event or activation. Strike Ninja is a perfect example of this. It does not mean that they have "no Trigger" it simply means that any event is a viable Trigger for this effect. It is non-specific.

Of course what i'm saying is not perfect but, i think it's pretty close to finding a general guildline to these effects.

Hope that helps
 
Whoop! I knew you (novastar) would feel compelled to shed some light on this whole thing...

I mean/meant NO DISRESPECT to any of the other people on this forum, judges, moderators, non-judges, etc...

I merely brought up novastar because I know he likes to use templates when explaining rulings and answering game mechanics and whatnot.

I sincerely hope nobody took any offense to my wanting to hear specifically from novastar.

Thanks.
 
skey23 said:
Whoop! I knew you (novastar) would feel compelled to shed some light on this whole thing...

I mean/meant NO DISRESPECT to any of the other people on this forum, judges, moderators, non-judges, etc...

I merely brought up novastar because I know he likes to use templates when explaining rulings and answering game mechanics and whatnot.

I sincerely hope nobody took any offense to my wanting to hear specifically from novastar.

Thanks.

No offense taken ever on such things....we're all here trying to figure things out, get rulings, and reason out those things that don't seem to make sense. We all have our "gifts" Obviously novastar is very talented in the area of templating....among other facets :)

Let the first person who hasn't learned something here and has all the answers throw the first stone!
 
skey23 said:
Whoop! I knew you (novastar) would feel compelled to shed some light on this whole thing...

I mean/meant NO DISRESPECT to any of the other people on this forum, judges, moderators, non-judges, etc...

I merely brought up novastar because I know he likes to use templates when explaining rulings and answering game mechanics and whatnot.

I sincerely hope nobody took any offense to my wanting to hear specifically from novastar.

Thanks.
Well i appreciate your kind words and i hope i helped. It seemed like you wanted me to answer so i posted. It was probably too much but... i get wordy sometimes.

An explaination from Dlanaan or John is just as good, i've seen there post for quite a long time and know just how good they are, as well as many others are. :)

We are all in the same boat on this cloudy sea of YGO.
 
exiledforcefreak said:
so i'm going to guess that option trigger monsters have the word "when" in their effect descriptions?
The term "When/Whenever" is a general Trigger templating, for Triggers, Optional Triggers and Multi-Triggers.

For Optional Triggers you will usually see:

"When/Whenever [this_event] occurs, you can do [this_effect]"

The "you can" being the important part indicating a choice.

Hope that helps
 
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