Rulings test

J

John Danker

Administrator
I give credit to tyloki who posted this test on another site for the couple of questions I'm posting. They certainly provoke thought.....

1. Dark Ruler Ha Des attacks a Reflect Bounder equipped with Heavy Mech Support Platform.

1.1 Does Reflect Bounder inflict the 2450?

1.2 Is Reflect Bounder destroyed? If yes, is it:

A: destroyed as a result of battle?
B: destroyed by its effect?


2. Player B has a face-down Cyber Jar.
Player A summons Tribe-Infecting Virus, and uses priority to use the effect. He declares Fairy (to kill his own Shining Angel).
Player B chains Desert Sunlight (to flip the face-down jar face-up)

Link 1: Tribe-Infecting Virus
Link 2: Desert Sunlight

Show how the chain would resolve, and tell what order the effects would happen
 
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Guys lets break this ruling down:

When "Reflect Bounder" is attacked by "Dark Ruler Ha Des", "Reflect Bounder" inflicts its effect damage, Okay, so effect damage is still being inflicted in Damage Sub-step 2. Why? Becasue Ha Des hasn't destroyed anything yet. He can't negate a monster that he hasn't destroyed yet.

damage calculation is applied, "Reflect Bounder" is determined to be destroyed as a result of battle, Now we're in Damage Sub-step 5, the Resolve Effects portion of the Damage Step. A Sub-step past the Sub-step that Reflect Bounder destroys itself in. Damage Calculation part 2.

"Dark Ruler Ha Des" negates "Reflect Bounder"'s effect, and "Reflect Bounder" does not destroy itself with its own effect, Now if were still in Damage Sub-step 5 (which we are) then it's much to late for Ha Des to negate anything. Damag Calculation occurs before a monster is destroyed by battle. So there shouldn't be anything reason for the . . .

however it was still destroyed as a result of battle statement to make any sense.

This ruling must be a mistake.
 
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damage calculation is applied, "Reflect Bounder" is determined to be destroyed as a result of battle, Now we're in Damage Sub-step 5, the Resolve Effects portion of the Damage Step. A Sub-step past the Sub-step that Reflect Bounder destroys itself in. Damage Calculation part 2.
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The chart is wrong in this case DJ. Reflect Bounder's effect occurs in Sub-Step 5 as soon as damage calculation ends, at the same time monsters are considered destroyed as a result of battle.

Lets make this clear, Reflect Bounder does NOT get "double-destroyed" if attacked by a bigger monster. It is an either/or scenario, either it is destroyed in battle, or it is destroyed by its effect.

If it is destroyed in battle, then it's own effect simply sends it to the Graveyard, but does not destroy him again. If he survives Damage Calculation without being destroyed, then the effect destroys it.
 
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novastar said:
The chart is wrong in this case DJ. Reflect Bounder's effect occurs in Sub-Step 5 as soon as damage calculation ends, at the same time monsters are considered destroyed as a result of battle.

Lets make this clear, Reflect Bounder does NOT get "double-destroyed" if attacked by a bigger monster. It is an either/or scenario, either it is destroyed in battle, or it is destroyed by its effect.

If it is destroyed in battle, then it's own effect simply sends it to the Graveyard, but does not destroy him again. If he survives Damage Calculation without being destroyed, then the effect destroys it.
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Well now in that case, something bothers me. If it's destroyed in the same Sub-step that Battle Destruction occurs in then whats determining the order of the destruction. I mean, what's determining which event destroys Reflect Bounder first?
 
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Ok like this, 2 ways to resolve this.

Scenario 1: destroyed in battle first, RB's effect second

[event] Damage Calculation ends

1.) Dark Ruler attempts to destroy RB as a result of battle, but HMSP steps in and replaces the destruction with its own instead.
2.) Dark Ruler does not destroy RB as a result of battle, the effect of RB is not negated.
3.) RB destroys itself.

Scenerio 2: Reflect Bounder's effect before destroyed in battle

1.) RB's effect attempts to destroy itself, but HMSP steps in and is destroyed instead.
2.) Dark Ruler destroys RB as a result of battle.

In both cases, both cards a destroyed.
 
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Digital Jedi said:
Well now in that case, something bothers me. If it's destroyed in the same Sub-step that Battle Destruction occurs in then whats determining the order of the destruction. I mean, what's determining which event destroys Reflect Bounder first?
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That is for Konami to determine, since they made these "wonderful" mechanics.

It seems however, and this is a just a guess, that based on the Dark Ruler vs. Reflect ruling, that battle destruction comes first. That would correspond with my scenario 1.
 
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novastar said:
Ok like this, 2 ways to resolve this.

Scenario 1: destroyed in battle first, RB's effect second

[event] Damage Calculation ends

1.) The Game attemps to destroy RB as a result of battle, but HMSP steps in a replaces the destruction with its own instead.
2.) DRHD does not destroy RB as a result of battle, so it does not negate the the effect of RB.
3.) RB destroys itself.

Scenerio 2: Reflect Bounder's effect before destroyed in battle

1.) RB's effect attempts to destroy itself, but HMSP steps in and is destroyed instead.
2.) The Game destroys RB as a result of battle.

In both cases, both cards a destroyed.
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I realize the results are same regardless of the order. But what determines the order? The attacker, the defender, a game mechanic etc.?
 
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my kids saying to me as we stare at the pretty fireworks...I like the green and purple one daddy, it reminds me of the Joker!....well I like the yellow and orange one, it looks like a dragon!
 
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novastar said:
Konami determines the order. See above.
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Sorry Nova, I'm still confused as to what your saying. I thought you were suggesting that there were two ways to reslove the order and that they could be resolved in either order. Which is why I ask who or what determins the order.
 
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Digital Jedi said:
Sorry Nova, I'm still confused as to what your saying. I thought you were suggesting that there were two ways to reslove the order and that they could be resolved in either order. Which is why I ask who or what determins the order.
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Oh sorry, my scenarios are theoretical ways or resolving the issue and determining an order. Konami prefers to predetermine an order for simultanious events (unlike Vs.)

So in the end, based on the Dark Ruler vs. Reflect Bounder ruling, i would say that battle destruction comes first, then Reflect's effect.

So Reflect Bounder would be destroyed by its effect.
 
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chaosruler said:
You said it again, Battle Destruction of Reflect Bounder, albeit temporary, so why doesn't Dark Ruler Ha Des negate RB's self-destruction effect?

-chaosruler
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Because HMSP is destroyed instead, so Dark Ruler never touches RB.

Make sense?
 
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Why is everyone getting so caught up on the fact that HMSP will protect against the monster being destroyed by something other than battle damage?

Would this be a different scenario if it were a regular Union Monster attached to "Reflect Bounder"? [edit] If possible.

The ONLY thing that I see as the issue here is WHEN does "Reflect Bounder" ACTUALLY destroy itself? Is it during sub step 4 as stated in Kevin's ORIGINAL chart? Or is it during sub step 5 as suggested by others here?

Once that is answered, then everything else will become clear.
 
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I go away for an hour and look what I miss...

Actually, the 2 scenarios described by Novastar, I described back on page 1 or early in 2. It depends on which is correct: the "Official FAQ" with the DRHD vs. Bounder (where DRHD Destroys and negates Bounder's effect but it's still destroyed by battle) OR Kevin's essay that lists Reflect Bounder's effect in step 4 which is before a monster is considered destroyed by battle so it would be destroyed by that first.

IN EITHER CASE though, Reflect Bounder is still destroyed eventually either by battle or by effect.
 
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