Sand moth

S

squid

removed from play
I became perplexified when I read the last ruling for Sand Moth

"¢ If a face-down "Sand Moth" is attacked by "Mystic Swordsman LV2" or "Sasuke Samurai" its effect will activate. But if it is attacked by "Drillroid" it will not activate since it will be face-up when it is destroyed by the effect of "Drillroid".

"¢ If the opponent controls your face-down "Sand Moth" and it is destroyed by a card effect, it will be Special Summoned to the owner's side of the field.

"¢ If "Sand Moth" is Special Summoned by its own effect, and then flipped face-down or removed from the field, its original ATK and DEF return to 1000 / 2000.

"¢ If a face-down "Sand Moth" is targeted by "Acid Trap Hole" its effect will not activate since it will be face-up when it is destroyed.

"¢ After "Sand Moth" is Special Summoned by its own effect, if you equip it with "Megamorph" you will either halve or double its new (2000) original ATK.

"¢ After "Sand Moth" is Special Summoned by its own effect, if you activate "Shield & Sword" it will have 1000 ATK / 2000 DEF for that turn.

"¢ Even if "Skill Drain" is active when "Sand Moth" is Special Summoned by its own effect, its ATK and DEF will remained switched. (2000 ATK / 1000 DEF).

The only thing I could think of was that the effect is a trigger that resolves in the Graveyard, with the last step being to summon the monster to the Field with the new ATK/DEF. Similar to how the Dark World monsters worked.

But if that is not correct, I really am at a loss
 
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No. Stat changing is not an effect that can happen in the graveyard.

Basically the reborn Sand Moth is an entirely different card that has an ATK of 2000 and a DEF of 1000.

Its what the card is, much like "A lefendary ocean" is Umi, except of course that it isn't always.
 
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That throws me. At some point the printed ATK of the card is switched with the DEF. What I was thinking was that it activated in the Graveyard, after it had determined that it had been destroyed while face down. Then the switch would resolve immediately upon it hitting the Field when it was summoned.

I can understand how it would never have the stat switch while in the Graveyard, but somewhere it does happen. It couldn't activate on the Field, otherwise how do you explain the Skill Drain ruling.

And, please don't take this the wrong way, but I find it very difficult to believe that it simply "becomes" that new card, without a beginning and and an end, an activation and a resolution.
 
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mortals said:
Its activation would be in the Graveyard and it would resolve on the field. This is the same Reasoning given to Goldd if it was to be discarded by your opponent's effect while Skill Drain was active on the field.
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Are you saying Goldd, Wu-Lord of Dark World's removal effect would resolve successfully even if Skill Drain is on the field?

This would imply to me that you target card(s) with the effect while Goldd is still in the Graveyard.
 
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Skill Drain negates lingering effect. So no matter where a change of stats happened Skill Drain would undo it as soon as the monster is successfully summoned.

It's clearly an unnegatable condition.

A piece of paper has no way to change itself so this non-effect has to be written in the effect text. But its essentially an entirely different monster being summoned to the field.
 
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d
DaGuyWitBluGlasses said:
Skill Drain negates lingering effect. So no matter where a change of stats happened Skill Drain would undo it as soon as the monster is successfully summoned.

It's clearly an unnegatable condition.

A piece of paper has no way to change itself so this non-effect has to be written in the effect text. But its essentially an entirely different monster being summoned to the field.
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Skill Drain doen't negate lingering effects.

"Skill Drain" will not affect lingering effects or conditions that are left over from a previous effect. For example, if you Special Summon a Fusion Monster with "Summoner of Illusions", and then "Skill Drain" is activated afterwards, the Fusion Monster is still destroyed in the End Phase. If you Special Summon a Fusion Monster with "Magical Scientist", and then "Skill Drain" is activated, the Fusion Monster cannot attack your opponent's Life Points directly, and is returned to the Fusion Deck at the end of the turn.
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It's ruling 29 under Skill Drain. Please use CRTL + F and type in "lingering effects" in the text box and click search. Beats scrolling through all those rulings and end up not finding it since you can pass it several times.

Sand Moth being special summoned through his own effect doesn't make him a completely new monster. He's the same monster he was before he was special summoned by his own effect. The only difference here is that he activates in the Graveyard with his stat change activating in the Graveyard in the same chain link as the summoning.
 
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Maybe lingering isn't the proper word, yet its still the same:

But Skill Drain does negate effects after they are resolved.

So for example you summon fusilier without tribute, wheneve Skill Drain is activated the stat change to fusilier is erased.

It is absolutely no issue where Sand Moth's effect happens. Because Sand Moth will be on the field once summoned if its effect were negatable it would be negated.

But it is a condition that "changes" what the card really is, and so Skill Drain has no power over it.
 
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While on the subject.... I know that Twin-Headed Behemoth has a completely different text, but his "revival effect" triggers in the graveyard, his changing stats as well???

Curiously enough I have never thought of this until now.
 
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Twin Headed Behemoth seems very similar to the condition that Daguy~ is stating, when you look at rule #4:
The condition that this card's effect can only be used once per Duel cannot be reset. So if it is Special Summoned by its own effect and later removed from play, flipped face-down, returned to your hand, destroyed and Special Summoned, or shuffled into your Deck, you STILL cannot use its effect a second time.
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It seems the stat change for both monsters is a condition (un-negatable) by Skill Drain. The only effect change then would seem to be the actual special summoning itself.

It just seems so hidden, in meaning. Until I asked this question, I had no way to see that it was a condition. Is there anything in the text that would lead us to believe that? Or, is it simply the ruling mentioned in the first post that is supposed to let us infer that it is a condition, and not an effect?
 
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Something to chew on, but if we go off the limb here and consider this types of "effects", conditions, we will most likely have a new defenition on condition, and we will really need clarification on this :p
 
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DaGuyWitBluGlasses said:
Maybe lingering isn't the proper word, yet its still the same:

But Skill Drain does negate effects after they are resolved.

So for example you summon fusilier without tribute, wheneve Skill Drain is activated the stat change to fusilier is erased.
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Yes, this is correct because Fusilier is modifying itself with its own effect.

DaGuyWitBluGlasses said:
Or it will erase Cybernetic Magician's effect of giving a monster 2000 ATK.
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No, actually it wouldn't. This is an external effect (it could prevent the boost if it becomes active before Cybernetic Magician's effect resolves but afterwards the effect has been applied and Skill Drain would have no power to change that.

DaGuyWitBluGlasses said:
It is absolutely no issue where Sand Moth's effect happens. Because Sand Moth will be on the field once summoned if its effect were negatable it would be negated.

But it is a condition that "changes" what the card really is, and so Skill Drain has no power over it.
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That does seem to be the intent for Sand Moth. It would appear that the stat modification is treated as a Graveyard effect (which would be vulnerable to The End of Anubis), or it is simply a *special* BKSS situation where the card is simply considered to be the changed value without better explanation.
 
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So the primary difference between these two is simply that Sand Moth's condition is not an irreversible condition, like Twin Headed Behemoth. ...all I mean is that the rulings also show how this condition can be reset if it is flipped face down and back up.

It is things like that which really make it difficult to differentiate it being an effect or condition.
 
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I think it has more to do with the fact that the effect is not continuous, it simply switches the numbers in a One-Shot fashion.

It is not negated by Skill Drain similar to how Waboku is not negated by Jinzo if summoned later, the effect has already resolved.

Sand Moth's effect is a Graveyard Trigger that activates and resolves from the grave and is untouched by Skill Drain.
 
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...that there seems to lineup with what the Dark World Monsters were ruled as. Since the special summoning and the hand thinning effect of Goldd was considered resolving in the same chain link, then the effect is resolving in the graveyard where Skill Drain can't touch it. Remember, the effect of a card isn't tied to the physical location of the card, its tied to where its activated.

That seems to be the closest thing. Do you think we're seeing a new breed of cards that function like this?
 
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