Sasuke Samurai #3 / Null and Void

J

John Danker

Administrator
A fellow judge of mine who's name online here is Evil Fiberjar sent me this research project....I'm drawing a blank here and there isn't much I can find concering the scenario. I'd appreciate game mechanics being applied if you can relate them....I'm at work....not much time to get into it right now.

Evil Fiberjar's scenario is as follows.....

Ok if my Sasuke samurai #3 inflicts battle damage to my opponent's LP and in chain I activate Null and Void in response will it deck out the oppenent?

Sasuke Samurai #3's effect: When this card inflicts battle damage to your opponent's Life Points, your opponent draws cards until his/her hand has 7 cards.

Null and Void's effect: You can only activate this card when an effect of drawing card(s) is activated. Both players see the cards drawn by the effect and send them all to the graveyard.

The rulings say you can activate Null and Void in chain to Sasuke samurai #3's effect.

Another ruling says the card(s) discarded by the effect of "Null and Void" are never treated as actually drawn, so they are considered sent from the deck to the graveyard.
So in a sense, since they never actually go to the hand and "complete" sasuke samurai #3's effect to where they need the 7 cards would they have to keep drawing untl the effect of Sasuke Samurai is complete?

I'm assuming that Sasuke Samurai's #3 effect won't be applied again. It's activation has been completed and wouldn't trigger again. Still, it's an interesting question and one that should spark some interesting conversation.
 
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well, since sasuke #3 says that they draw until they have 7 cards in hand, i don't think they would deck out, since all cards are drawn simultaneously, and sasuke waits til he resolves to make them draw, Null and Void cannot interrupt drawing of one card to discard it

-chaosruler
 
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This kind of sounds like the "Infinite Loop Scenario" of Jinzo, Amplifier, Imperial Order, and Snatch Steal.

I would say that since it would cause an infinite loop, it would be unable to activate because the situation would never resolve successfully.
 
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wait, could you explain the infinite loop part to me?? i think that sasuke samurai #3's effect wouldn't activate every time, unless he attcked multiple times, etc.

-chaosruler
 
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Well I could possibly see S.S. #3 effect activating again...or perhaps better put continuing to resolve after Null and Void resolves but obviously Null and Void doesn't activate again.

There is a possibility that S.S. #3 combined with Null and Void could result in up to 14 cards coming off the top of the deck I suppose.

Even if both cards would continue their effects it wouldn't be an infinate loop. The player would draw out. That doesn't constintute and infinate loop. There WOULD be an end to it....drawing out...or better put, the inability to draw any more cards which would halt the effect of S.S. #3
 
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Hmmm... both are very valid points... I think that it could work, but it doesnt deck you out... Here is how I see it.. You attack the opponent with Sazuke Samurai #3 inflicting Damage to his/her lifepoints.... Samurai's Effect is now activated. Your opponent has 3 cards in hand, and must draw 4 cards. Those 4 cards go to the graveyard.....

Now, even though that SEEMS right, the problem lies in the fact that that the FAQ has 2 very interesting things to say about Null and Void
1.) The card(s) discarded by the effect of "Null and Void" are never treated as actually drawn, so they are considered sent from the Deck to the Graveyard.

2.)You can activate "Null and Void" during the Damage Step, for example against the effects of "Airknight Parshath", "Sasuke Samurai #3" or "Bistro Butcher

Now, in the FAQ it says NOTHING about Sasuke Samurai #3, only 1,2&4.... So therefore I would have to say that Konami / Upperdeck decided it doesnt need any ruling on right now....
Sasuke Samurai #3
When this card inflicts Battle Damage to your opponent's Life Points, your opponent draws until his/her hand has 7 cards.

Now, since there are no rulings.... and the Null and Void FaQ says you CAN chain tot he effect of Sasuke Samurai #3, but the cards never get treated as actually drawn, its sort of a double standard. However, since Sasuke Samurai's effect never gets satisfied, AND the FAQ says you CAN activate against Sasuke Samurai #3.... It is a legal combo.... but since those cards never get to reach the hand, you have to keep drawing till it IS SATISFIED... I would rule it a legal combo.

Now, if they DIDNT say that you CAN activate for his effect, i would rule more like the Horus vs Creature Swap combo... since it cannot satisfy the requirements, it wont work, but it DOES SAY you CAN activate it for Samurai's Effect... so i think it is a very deadly combo....sorta cheap till they change the FAQ,but Legal
 
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chaosruler said:
wait, could you explain the infinite loop part to me?? i think that Sasuke Samurai #3's effect wouldn't activate every time, unless he attcked multiple times, etc.

-chaosruler
Click to expand...
The infinite loop caused by Jinzo, equipped with Amplifier, allows Trap Cards to be activated.

Player A controls Jinzo.

Player B activates "Snatch Steal" to take Jinzo and equips Amplifier and activates Imperial Order, which negates Snatch Steal.

Player A gets Jinzo back, in turn, negating Imperial Order, which returns Jinzo to the controller of Snatch Steal, which in turn activates Imperial Order, negating Snatch Steal....


No end to the loop.
 
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chaosruler said:
sorry, i should have clarified, i meant how Sasuke Samurai #3 and Null and Void could cause an infinite loop, so sorry to waste your time

-chaosruler
Click to expand...

Sasuke Samurai would attack once, since the controller cant actually draw if Null and Void is activated, then he would have to continue picking up cards for the effect of SS#3 until he got 7 cards in hand, which he will never be able to do, so the effect never resolves properly.

Endless loop especially if you pick up a Penguin Knight.
 
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masterwoo0 said:
Sasuke Samurai would attack once, since the controller cant actually draw if Null and Void is activated, then he would have to continue picking up cards for the effect of SS#3 until he got 7 cards in hand, which he will never be able to do, so the effect never resolves properly.

Endless loop especially if you pick up a Penguin Knight.
Click to expand...

How is it that S.S. #3 + Null and Void is an endless loop? As I said earlier I can see S.S. #3's effect kicking in again once Null and Void has resolved but then S.S. #3's effect would cause the player to draw until they had 7 cards in their hand. Null and Void has already resolved, it's it's effect won't activate again.
 
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Actually, guys, we're forgeting game mechanics here:

Sasuke Samurai inflicts damage and it's effect, one that includes drawing cards, activates.

So the controller of Sasuke Samurai activates Null and Void, which is perfectly legal.

Sasuke Samurai's effect resolves and forces the opponent to draw cards until they have 7. Null and Void now lets both players look at the cards and discard them to the graveyard.

Sasuke Samurai's effect, just like every other monster whose effects activate when they inflict damage, only activate ONCE and only once in the damage step.

The reason the "card(s) discarded by the effect of "Null and Void" are never treated as actually drawn, so they are considered sent from the Deck to the Graveyard." is to avoid those effects which activate wehen a player draws.

So the player being affected by Null and Void won't gain LP from Solemn Wishes, they won't be able to SS Watapon, Pharaoh's Treasure or Parasite Paracide, it won't trigger Appropiate and it won't trigger Forced Requisition (flipping it face-up, I don't know, but you definitely WON'T discard).



Dark Ruler Ha Des
 
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We realize that it only activates once....but it appears as though it hasn't resolved....but yeah, you're right. Once Null and Void resolves S.S. #3s effect would HAVE to activate once again in order to draw again. You couldn't start the drawing effect, have it interupted by the effect of Null and Void resolving, and then continue the effect of S.S. #3. That would make less sense than anything of what we've said so far....and I'm starting to make less sense all the time <laffin>
 
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but since the cards are never drawn to the hand.... hmm.. wait.... they are NEVER CONSIDERED DRAWN...... if that is the case.... you will never satisfy Sasuke Samurai #3's effect.... but since it IS allowed to be activated in response to his effect.... you would deck out cuz his effect is never satisfied....
 
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Sasuke Samurai #3's effect is resolved, but then Null and Void shuns it, and it does not activate after the second time, because null and void is not continuous

-chaosruler
 
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How can it be satisfied if you never get 7 cards in hand... Null and Void is being actvated in response to his effect.... therefore, the cards are never really drawn, they never make it to the hand cuz they go directly to the graveyard. Wouldnt it make sense then that you have to keep picking up cards till you have 7 in hand??Since they never reach the hand you dont get 7 cards, and have to keep picking up cards till you do.
 
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chaosruler said:
Sasuke Samurai #3's effect is resolved, but then Null and Void shuns it, and it does not activate after the second time, because null and void is not continuous

-chaosruler
Click to expand...

This is why I was saying even IF S.S. #3's effect activated again there is no loop. Null and Void doesn't continue to activate. It resolves and PERHAPS S.S.#3's effect would kick in again....but I think we've shown that it couldn't because S.S.#3's effect would have to ACTIVATE again after the resolution of Null and Void....and as Dark Ruler Ha Des was pointing out S.S. #3's effect activates only when it does LP damage. The last fact to happens was the resolution of Null and Void not lp damage so S.S. #3 won't activate again.
 
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wait

okay SS #3 effect activates and then N & V is activated, SS #3 is STILL active, N & V makes it so the cards that should be drawn dont enter the hand, if that is true then you still have to satisfy SS #3's effect which N & V is still going to effect the SS #3's still ongoing effect thus making him/her have to continue drawing because neither card causes the other to stop in any way, so in a sense they should deck themselves
 
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