Skill Drain vs. Breaker's Counter

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Raigekick

New Member
Situation:
Player A has a Set "Dust Tornado" that was set two turns ago.
Player A is the turn player.

Player B has a face-up "Skill Drain" and a face-up "Mechanicalchaser"
Player B also has a face-down "Bottomless Trap Hole"

Player A knows that Player B's face-down Trap card is "Bottomless Trap Hole" thanks to Player B's previously activated "Fake Trap".

Player A wants to trick Player B in to not activating his BTH.

Play:
  1. Player A summons "Breaker the Magical Warrior".
  2. Breaker's Trigger Effect Activates by trying to place a Spell Counter on Breaker ("Skill Drain" does not stop Trigger Effect from activating).
  3. Player B does not chain. He thinks his "Mechanicalchaser is safe from a 1600 ATK).
  4. Player A chains "Dust Tornado" and targets "Skill Drain".
Question:
1) Is it too late for Player B to chain his BTH?
2) If it is too late for this chain, can he activate BTH on another chain because the first chain was for Breaker's Trigger Effect.
 
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novastar said:
It doesnt matter John.

Response timing is a one time offer. A double "Pass" is a pass on response timing. You each get an opportunity to respond to an event, once both players have passed (no activation) the Response Chain resolves and the response timing is over.

The Torrential Tribute scenario is illegal, as the Turn Player passed on response timing and so did the Opponent.
Click to expand...

I can understand the doubt you have. I'll post a question on the judge's board to make it official. This one I had confirmed and demostrated to me with another judge by Kevin himself.
 
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Ok, the "Double Pass" will be asked in the Judge's Board. Cool!

What about the original question, and densetsu_x's comment:

densetsu_x said:
Back with the original question, the timing for "Bottomless Trap Hole" also would have passed since even though Breaker would not get a counter put on him with "Skill Drain" on the field, the effect would have activated thereby giving the opponent a chance to respond or pass right there. If he didn't activate BTH at that time, the timing to respond would have passed.
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Well, the jury is still out on whether Summon Triggers give up your right to Priority, and specifically i mean the right to activate a Spell Speed 2 first, which i believe it does not, but it can be debated.

However, BTH can be activated at any point during the Response Chain, so if so called Priority goes back to the Turn Player in that case, he/she activated Dust Tornado, which will give the Opponent another chance to active BTH.

So timing has definately not passed in this case. BTH is still legal to activate.
 
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The thing not being mentioned is that with Breaker, a Response Chain still automatically activates (the Counter being put on him)... even though Skill Drain will negate that, a chain was activated so if that resolves, you've already missed the chance to respond with BTH. Now though, if you decide to chain "Dust Tornado" to Breaker receiving a counter (so it hasn't resolved yet), the opponent can then chain "Bottomless Trap Hole" which will then remove Breaker from play.
 
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Raigekick said:
Ok, the "Double Pass" will be asked in the Judge's Board. Cool!

What about the original question, and densetsu_x's comment:
Click to expand...

I posted both questions (the orginal scenario and the double pass with Torrential Tribute) to the judge's board. Hopefully we'll see the answer in the next couple of days.

I'd like to thank all those who have contributed to this discussion. This is the kind of discussion that really helps people to not just rule correctly but understand why it's ruled the way it is.
 
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Raigekick said:
What about the original question, and densetsu_x's comment:
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It would appear it comes down to a priority issue.

If priority can only be passed once by each player, as novastar states, then the opportunity for Player B to have activated BTH would have been missed when he chose not to activate it when Player A passed priority to him, again, as novastar states. Also, if that IS the case, then the opportunity for Player A to activate Dust Tornado in response to Breaker's effect was also missed. So Breaker would not receive the counter because of Skill Drain. So activating Dust Tornado to destroy Skill Drain would have been a wasted effort if it was in order to allow Breaker to receive his counter.

Now if it ends up being that priority is passed 'twice' before timing is missed, then both cards can be activated. Dust Tornado in response to Breaker's effect, then BTH since the initial chain is still building.
 
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densetsu_x said:
The thing not being mentioned is that with Breaker, a Response Chain still automatically activates (the Counter being put on him)... even though Skill Drain will negate that, a chain was activated so if that resolves, you've already missed the chance to respond with BTH. Now though, if you decide to chain "Dust Tornado" to Breaker receiving a counter (so it hasn't resolved yet), the opponent can then chain "Bottomless Trap Hole" which will then remove Breaker from play.
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Yes, i definately agree with this...in this particular scenario Dust Tornado was activated, giving another chance for BTH. In the even that it was not, then you would be correct, as the Turn Player would simply (or has already) Pass(ed), and the Response Chain would be forced to resolve (a Double Pass).
 
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John Danker said:
I can understand the doubt you have. I'll post a question on the judge's board to make it official. This one I had confirmed and demostrated to me with another judge by Kevin himself.
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One of the issues here that we should make clear, for everyone reading, is that there is a big difference between summoning Breaker and summoning a normal monster like Archfiend Soldier.

Breaker has a Trigger, which possibly gives up your right to Priority. Archfiend does not, and you should retain Priority, to activate an effect as the Turn Player.

In the case of Breaker i can see the Torrential Tribute scenario working, since the Trigger would Pass automatically, and the Opponent activates first anyway.

In the case of Archfiend, it should be illegal, as you retain Priority and pass on it to allow the opponent to activate. Once you both have passed, you should not be allowed to continue to respond to the same event.

If Kevin is saying that the latter is true, then he is saying that the original principle of timing that had been around at the beginning, with no Priority at all, is what we are going back too. Which seems counter-intuitive to say the least.

Basically, i see the Torry T example as specifically outlining that if a Normal Monster is summoned (with no Ignition Effect) then Priority is not given.
 
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FALLACY WARNING
The following is an attempt to explain why the ruling "might" be correct. The logic following is flawed and shouldn't be regarded as proof, but exists to give at least some grounds for why their "might" be a second opportunity for the turn player to respond to a summon


  • Compare it too effect in the End/Standby phase:

    Player A can pass priority to player B
    Player B can pass priority back to Player A...

    this doesn't mean that there's any timing lost. It just means Player A is put on the botton. Player A must no choose which effect (of his/her own) to resolve.

    It's the same thing with summoning priority.

    Player A passes Priority
    Player B passes Priority,
    Player A is on the Button now, Player A must choose whether to activate a card in response to the summon, or to continue with the turn, If player A does not wish to respond to the summon, player B has missed his/her chance.

I agree with Densetsu and Novastar that it doesn't make sense for the turn player to have a second opportunity to respond to the summon, however i do remember seeing the same argument John posted and (only) for the time being will play that the turn player has that second opportunity. Hopefully this will be an issue that will be clarified soon.
 
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Resolving effects in the End Phase is not the same as responding to a Summon. There is no particular timing in the End Phase as to when an effect must resolve other than to say at some point that player must resolve that effect. When you summon a monster, there are 2 windows in which you have to respond to it. The first is with a card like "Solemn Judgment" or "Horn of Heaven" as to whether or not you want to allow the summon to happen in the first place or negate it outright. The second is if the summon isn't negated and is considered successful, you both have 1 chance to respond to said summon. You don't get 2 cracks at the same opportunity unless your opponent does something.
 
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novastar said:
You cannot compare it to the End/Standby Phase, that is unrelated to Response Timing/Chains.
Click to expand...

What john posted was the same ruling i remember, i didn't think it made sense either. I compared in order to find an explanation. "Stretching" a rule is usually less confusing that a Because Konami Says So.
 
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I get that, but this whole logic is flawed, and is not a Konami said so...this is a Kevin said so...which is a whole other ball game.

The ruling on BTH does not in anyway prove this logic. All it is saying is that BTH must be activated during the Response Chain of a successful summon, sometimes its best NOT to read too much into things, this seems like a classic case of it...much like the Snatch Steal scenario a while back.

Remember "events" like "chains" also resolve, and the Response timing resolves when both players Pass, whether an actual Response Chain with chain links exists or not.
 
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