Some questions

[mikoal]

i just got some questions and i need some clarifications.

1) opponent has 1 monster, you have horus lvl6, and you activate creature swap, what hpapens?

2)
a)
p1 has 1 face up monster, mystic tomato, and 4 face down monsters, and 3 set blast with chains,

p2 has 1 face up monster, mystic tomato, and 4 face down monsters, and 3 set blast with chains

its p1's turn, he activates heavy storm
what happens?

who selects the destruction first?
can one choose the opp's face up mosnter and therefore the remaining BwC no longer work?

or...

the all select their 3 targets simultaneously?


b) same scenario as quesion 2, but what if P1's mystic tomato was a gearfried the iron knight?


3)return from different dimension jinzo, does he stay on the field? i would say he doesnt.

4)a) player 1 has a set BwC
player 2 has a set decree
p2 plays heavy storm
what hapens?

does BwC still work?

and what if

b)player 1 has a set BwC
player 2 has a set decree
p1 plays heavy storm
what hapens?

does BwC still work?

5)damage step substep 2(i beleive) are the next questions, where it states the monster flips up and continous effects kicks in, and jinzo's effect would happen right away......


a)hayabusa knight equipped with BwC and atacks a face down jinzo, does jinzo die? and y doesnt he?

b)thousand eye restrict vs tsukuyomi, tsuku attacks it face down, TER should die, but what if u apply the substep 2, and continous effects jumps in and occurs here? can tsukuyomi even continue to atack?

c)1 face up command knight,. and 1 face down command knight, opp has a cyber dragon, atks the face down command knight, does it die? i think it does, but once again, what about the damage step substep 2??

d)p1 has a 7 color fish,with a legendary ocean and gravity bind up, atacks a face down spell cancellor, what happens? does the fish stop on its tracks? and explain how does that happen..


thanks...

 

[Cropz]

As soon as "Jinzo" is flipped during Sub Step 2, the effects of ALL trap cards are immediately negated. So that means the ATK boost from "Blast with Chain" is gone.

that would also mean that 'Blast with Chain' itself is gone, since the effect that makes it an Equip Card is being negated it'll be destroyed by a game mechanic (since Normal Traps can't remain face-up on the field).

 

[John Danker]

Please forgive me for coming into this conversation way late...if I'm giving input that is irrelavent or if I've not read completely enough or if I've mistaken intent but I'll just throw out a couple of comments...

Because Jinzo's effect is not a "trigger" effect. It's a Continuous Effect that becomes active immediately upon being placed face-up on the field.

We know this not to be true by the Ceasefire / Jinzo ruling right? Jinzo's effect does not become active until the current card effect resolves.

When we look at the ruling concerning Spirit Reaper and Rush Recklessly....

If "Spirit Reaper" is destroyed by its effect during the Damage Step, such as if "Rush Recklessly" was activated to increase its ATK, destroy "Spirit Reaper" with its effect AFTER damage calculation.

Could it not stand to reason that possibly Jinzo's effect would not become active until after the damage step as well?

 

[masterwoo0]

that would also mean that 'Blast with Chain' itself is gone, since the effect that makes it an Equip Card is being negated it'll be destroyed by a game mechanic (since Normal Traps can't remain face-up on the field).

Good point...

I myself keep forgetting that it is still a Normal Trap Card, but it probably is more to the fact that I dont really play with it much.

 

[masterwoo0]

Please forgive me for coming into this conversation way late...if I'm giving input that is irrelavent or if I've not read completely enough or if I've mistaken intent but I'll just throw out a couple of comments...

Because Jinzo's effect is not a "trigger" effect. It's a Continuous Effect that becomes active immediately upon being placed face-up on the field.

We know this not to be true by the Ceasefire / Jinzo ruling right? Jinzo's effect does not become active until the current card effect resolves.

When we look at the ruling concerning Spirit Reaper and Rush Recklessly....

If "Spirit Reaper" is destroyed by its effect during the Damage Step, such as if "Rush Recklessly" was activated to increase its ATK, destroy "Spirit Reaper" with its effect AFTER damage calculation.

Could it not stand to reason that possibly Jinzo's effect would not become active until after the damage step as well?

I considered that as well when I looked at Acid trap hole vs Jinzo.

 

[Cropz]

"Destruction" Continuous Effects (such as 'Spirit Reaper' and 'Berserk Gorilla') wait until after damage calculation to apply, other Continuous Effects ('Jinzo') are applied imediately.

but note that even Continuous Effects can't stop the resolution of an effect, and that's why 'Jinzo' can't negate 'Ceasefire' in that case.

 

[masterwoo0]

"Destruction" Continuous Effects (such as 'Spirit Reaper' and 'Berserk Gorilla') wait until after damage calculation to apply, other Continuous Effects ('Jinzo') are applied imediately.

but note that even Continuous Effects can't stop the resolution of an effect, and that's why 'Jinzo' can't negate 'Ceasefire' in that case.

Another good point. Would it be any different if Jinzo was summoned in a chain after Waboku resolved? No. So I guess that is as good an answer as any, so far.

 

[John Danker]

We know that Waboku sets up a condition though so how is that relavent to the currnent conversation (not trying to cause trouble here....honestly curious)

 

[John Danker]

"Destruction" Continuous Effects (such as 'Spirit Reaper' and 'Berserk Gorilla') wait until after damage calculation to apply, other Continuous Effects ('Jinzo') are applied imediately.

but note that even Continuous Effects can't stop the resolution of an effect, and that's why 'Jinzo' can't negate 'Ceasefire' in that case.

Do we have any evidence on either side officially or are we making guesses based on conjecture here?.....I'm learning here guys....don't swing an axe at me please? So often my tone of writing can be mistaken as attacking.

 

[masterwoo0]

We know that Waboku sets up a condition though so how is that relavent to the currnent conversation (not trying to cause trouble here....honestly curious)

Im with you. We're all learning, but what I meant by Waboku was the fact that it's a Normal Trap Card (nevermind the lingering effect) that doesnt stay on the field past resolution of the chain.

If it were "Jar of Greed", there is no lingering effect; just draw a card. If Jinzo is summoned in a chain to a resolved Jar of Greed, it's too late to make the opponent put the card back in his deck. The effect has already passed jinzo's reach.

If Ceasefire or Acid Trap Hole are activated, Jinzo isnt flipped face up until the actual effect comes to resolution. If I successfully chain and resolve seven tools of the bandit to either of the above effects, will I ever know what the face-down monster was? Nope. So that would make it clear that jinzo is flipped face-up at resolution, and it doesnt matter that he can negate the effect of a face-up Trap Card because the activation and resolution are already pass his ability to affect.

 

[masterwoo0]

This looks like a good supporting evidence ruling....


Jinzo vs. Final Attack Orders Vs. Ceasefire 2006-05-02 11:46:00 <Ryoga Hibiki>


I have a face-down Defense Position Jinzo, a face-up
Final Attack Orders, and a face-down Ceasefire on the
field.

I activate Ceasefire, flipping Jinzo face-up and doing
500 damage to my opponent.

Now, what battle position is Jinzo in? Is he in
Defense Position because Final Attack Orders is
negated or not?

Cheers,
Ryoga

---------------------------------------------
ANSWER:

He is in Defense Position.
All Continuous Effects are constantly applied in-between links of a chain, but not withing a single link in the chain.

So "Jinzo" is flipped-face up, and the damage is dealt for "Ceasefire's" effect.
Now "Ceasefire" has resolved, so we would apply any Continuous Effects, but "Final Attack Order's" effect is negated because "Jinzo" is face-up on the field.


Dan Scheidegger
Jr. Game Designer
Yu-Gi-Oh! TCG R&D
Upper Deck Entertainment

 

[John Danker]

Yes we know that outside of damage step Jinzo's effect will become active between chain links, I don't think thats ever been in question....but I was hoping for a reference in the damage step.

 

[Tiso]

I just do not see how his effect would matter in the Damage Step when he is flipped face-up during the damage and is effectively already destroyed, thus his effect would be not a problem to worry about.

 

[masterwoo0]

I just do not see how his effect would matter in the Damage Step when he is flipped face-up during the damage and is effectively already destroyed, thus his effect would be not a problem to worry about.

How can he already be determined to be destroyed "before" damage calculation is completed?

If his effect would negate a Trap Card that adds to the monsters attack during the Damage Step, and that boost is what cleared the 1500 attack barrier, then there is the likely chance that there is either going to be damage inflicted to the turn player, or, equal attack/defense, resulting in Jinzo remaining on the field.

 

[John Danker]

I look at Jinzo being flipped up during the resolution of a card effect the same as I look at it as Jinzo being flipped up in damage step, it's effect doesn't become active until the the card effect resolves or the damage step is finished....but by all means, please prove me incorrect, always up for learning something new here.

 

[Tiso]

How can he already be determined to be destroyed "before" damage calculation is completed?

If his effect would negate a Trap Card that adds to the monsters attack during the Damage Step, and that boost is what cleared the 1500 attack barrier, then there is the likely chance that there is either going to be damage inflicted to the turn player, or, equal attack/defense, resulting in Jinzo remaining on the field.

But he is. Ancient Gear Beast ruling state so that a monster is still considered destroyed even if it is not in the Graveyard.

 

[masterwoo0]

But he is. Ancient Gear Beast ruling state so that a monster is still considered destroyed even if it is not in the Graveyard.

Im not debating that point. Destroyed is destroyed.... Damage Calculation determined that he would be destroyed.

What Im arguing is, that if a Trap Card gave the boost of attack to 1550, enough to destroy Jinzo; if jinzo negates the Trap and reduces the attack to 1050 before Damage Calculation is performed, Jinzo is not destroyed.

 

[John Danker]

I think it's already been mentioned that according to the damage calculation chart Jinzo's effect apply as soon as they are flipped face up <shrug> I skimmed right over that part of this thread and hadn't checked the damage step chart myself.....you'd think I'd have learned by now to do my research before commenting <sigh> kids....what are you going to do with them eh? Never learn <going to the corner>

 

[novastar]

I look at Jinzo being flipped up during the resolution of a card effect the same as I look at it as Jinzo being flipped up in damage step, it's effect doesn't become active until the the card effect resolves or the damage step is finished....but by all means, please prove me incorrect, always up for learning something new here.

Actually you unfortunately will be incorrect on this one John.

The vast majority of Continuous Monster Effects will become active the moment the monster is flipped face-up, there are only certain specific exceptions to the rule (ie. Sprit Reaper's destruction, but battle indestructability still does).

For example, if Command Knight were to be flipped face-up due to attack, he would instantly recieve his boost, prior to DC.

Jinzo's effect will become active prior to Damage Calculation when flipped face-up due to attack.

EDIT: saw your last post, sorry...

 

[John Danker]

<nodding> Yeah, I'd never really examined that line of the damage step before, I guess it was never an "issue" in a scenario that I'd needed to rule on. Never the less, I'm glad that I've learned this before I stumbled upon it. Always better to be proactive than reactive.

Thanks folks for teaching me something....yet again!