Summoning Rules and Negations

[densetsu_x]

we all know for sure that you CANNOT chain to the summon of a monster and IO and jinzo are VERY different. Heres some examples of how to prove this...

it goes like this for jinzo
step 1: sac for jinzo (jinzos effect activates automatically
step 2: your opponent cannot activate any traps and jinzo pwns
as simple as that...

Not quite as simple as that. There is one thing you must take into consideration first.

1) Player states he is summoning a monster.
2) Opponent may respond with "Horn of Heaven" / "Solemn Judgment" to negate it.
3) If summon is not negated, the monster is considered to have been successfully summoned.
4) Next, resolve any active continuous spell cards, continuous trap cards, and field spell in regards to the new monster.
5) If the monster has a continuous effect, it activates now. This activation may not be chained to and resolves before anything else can be done by any player.
5a) If the monster has a trigger effect upon being summoned or some other automatic effect, that activates now. This effect can be chained to by the opponent.
6) If the monster has a Cost effect or if there is a Cost effect monster on the turn player's side of the field, the turn player may activate one of these effects before the opponent can respond to the summoning.
7) The opponent may respond to the summon.

- A

 

[densetsu_x]

Re: jinzo vs torrential tribute

Sho'nuff. I like that breakdown. It does, however, show just how complicated this game really is AND, to me, how little thought went into game mechanics at the start of the development of this game.

I've "heard stories" about how it all started -- rumors, mind you -- that this was merely a promo idea for the manga/cartoon/etc. and not really destined to make it as a game. Once it took off, they were suddenly faced with having to actually make it work. And, years and years later, they're still working on that -- and working on it seriously only within the last eight to ten months.

But, that's only hearsay. :evil:

If Konami was smart, they would revamp the whole mess and start over, so to speak. Didn't Magic do that? Sorta? I think that people would be tolerant of a whole rules restructuring that made sense rather than all this "unknown, secret handshake and a wink, maybe an essay of importance in 2006, we don't have a clue, but didn't you read the website that we updated last month and didn't tell anyone" type of ruling support that goes on right now from "official sources".

What do you mean? I can't think of a single time when something like this ever happenned. Truly. I mean, wasn't it always official that "Fairy King Truesdale" had to be in DEF position for everyone to get the effect? I mean, that's the way the card was always played? No?

*Notices he's way off topic now...*

Um... You can't activate "Torrential Tribute" in response to summoning "Jinzo" (unless "Skill Drain" was on the field first before "Jinzo" was summoned, thereby negating the trap-negating ability so you can blast him and the field).

- A

 

[novastar]

Re: jinzo vs torrential tribute

Truth is bishop that i definately agree with you completely...

They say that you can use Horn/SJ before the monster actually becomes actually summoned, but no one can really explain why, there is this mysterious "gap" or window in which you can do this. It really more resembles VS "recruit effect" in which the recruit could teoretically be negated at that point, and then after that resolves we have recruit triggers go off in another chain.

We will fix this eventually, its just going to take some time...

 

[the.wise.duelist]

Re: jinzo vs torrential tribute

lets just get this question answered in one sentence...

you CANNOT chain to jinzo's summon except by SJ, and HoH, you CAN chain to IO with cards that match its spell speed or better. There thats all that needs to be said.

to answer novastar...
The gap is where the monster is sacrificed and jinzo is decending to the field from your opponent hand. You can now chain the summon with only HoH, and SJ.

 

[novastar]

Re: jinzo vs torrential tribute

Yes, and that is the only real somewhat reasonable way of explaining it.

You have a Summon Declaration Chain (much like we do with the Attack Declaration/Battle Step), which you can respond to with Horn/SJ, then when that resolves, you have successfully summoned the monster. Then we have the Summon Response chain.

What makes it really weird, is that IF we have this mysterious declaration chain, why can only Horn/SJ be played? why not any other Spell Speed 2?

"Konami said so..."

 

[densetsu_x]

Re: jinzo vs torrential tribute

Well, Horn and SJ are Speed 3 Counter traps... so that's why they get the love and the Speed 2 don't.

It would almost make sense... almost, if summoning were assigned say a Speed 3 factor. Then you could "chain" either of those 2 to the summoning... but lord knows what kind of can of worms that would open up.

- A

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

Re: jinzo vs torrential tribute

A few additions to densetsu's break-down

1) Player states he is summoning a monster.  And cost are paid now, (tributes, Removing Cards from Play, Paying Life Points (for Sphinxes)
2) Opponent may respond with "Horn of Heaven" / "Solemn Judgment" to negate it.  Either Player may respond respond right now with those 2 cards (not jsut the opponent) and Seven Tools of the Bandit may be chained to those 2 cards--i beleive that since Horn of Heaven and Solemn Judgment do not chain to the summon more than one can be activated... (Extrapolated from Negate Attack)
3) If summon is not negated, the monster is considered to have been successfully summoned.
4) Next, resolve any active continuous spell cards, continuous trap cards, and field spell in regards to the new monster.  "This card can not be affected by spell cards" is applied here too
5) If the monster has a continuous effect, it activates now.  This activation may not be chained to and resolves before anything else can be done by any player.
5a) If the monster has a trigger effect upon being summoned or some other automatic effect, that activates now.  This effect can be chained to by the opponent.  Other trigger effects happen here too also any cards chained are considered "In Response to a Summon"

This doesn't happen if 5a occurs:
6) If the monster has a Cost effect or if there is a Cost effect monster on the turn player's side of the field, the turn player may activate one of these effects before the opponent can respond to the summoning.
once again chaining is in Response to a summon)

This doesn't happen if 5a or 6 happened:
7) The opponent may respond to the summon.

 

[novastar]

Re: jinzo vs torrential tribute

Yes, but in any other event response chain, i can play any Spell Speed 2 or a Spell Speed 3 (if it the right one).

This is the only response chain in the entire game that is like this.

2) Opponent may respond with "Horn of Heaven" / "Solemn Judgment" to negate it.  Either Player may respond respond right now with those 2 cards (not jsut the opponent) and Seven Tools of the Bandit may be chained to those 2 cards--i beleive that since Horn of Heaven and Solemn Judgment do not chain to the summon more than one can be activated... (Extrapolated from Negate Attack[/i]

Forget about the Negate Attack ruling, it is incorrect. You cannot chain more Horn/SJ, if Seven Tools is chained to it. The only thing you can chain after Seven Tools, is another Spell Speed 3 Trap negater like Seven Tools.

 

[Fiendish Envoy]

Re: jinzo vs torrential tribute

Just thought that I would add something to this discussion:

"Royal Oppression" is another card that has the ability to negate summons.

 

[densetsu_x]

Re: jinzo vs torrential tribute

Well, I think I have another article I can try to write about in the January ARRJ...

 

[densetsu_x]

Re: jinzo vs torrential tribute

Just thought that I would add something to this discussion:

"Royal Oppression" is another card that has the ability to negate summons.

Special Summons only... and if I recall, this and "Last Turn" were the 2 cards from the PGD that don't have any official rulings yet because they were going to make Kevin have a hemorrhage.

Heck I tackled "Last Turn", I think I can manage this one too.

- A

 

[Fiendish Envoy]

Re: jinzo vs torrential tribute

Yes, special summons only.

LOL, I remember a thread on YuGiOhRealms talking about how "Last Turn" works, and boy it got pretty darn complicated with how everything resolves

 

[novastar]

Re: jinzo vs torrential tribute

I will be trying to collect as much relevent and useful info that i can, to explain this in the comprehensive rules as best i can. A complete step by step approach.

 

[densetsu_x]

Re: jinzo vs torrential tribute

Nova: I'll work it out with you... I figure we should be able to come up with all the conditions and such.

After all "Royal Oppression" does something that "Horn of Heaven" / "Solemn Judgment" can't do. It can be used to "negate" say "Monster Reborn" to prevent the Special Summon while HoH/SJ can't negate the Special Summon of a monster from "Monster Reborn".

- A

 

[novastar]

Re: jinzo vs torrential tribute

Just thought that I would add something to this discussion:

"Royal Oppression" is another card that has the ability to negate summons.

Special Summons only... and if I recall, this and "Last Turn" were the 2 cards from the PGD that don't have any official rulings yet because they were going to make Kevin have a hemorrhage.

Heck I tackled "Last Turn", I think I can manage this one too. 

- A

Even still, theoretically it should be legal to use it to negate special summons from hand like Dark Necrofear etc. going by the Horn/SJ mechanic.

Of course what i'm saying right now is not correct according to the rules, but according to the logic of response chains it makes sense.

 

[novastar]

Re: jinzo vs torrential tribute

And people sometimes wondered why I was dizzy all the time and elected to do backend support for the Official "Netreps" rather than sit in the foreground and get slaughtered by the likes of you guys? LOL!

:bishop:

Yeah, sorry for being so hard on you in the past. You did your best.

 

[densetsu_x]

Re: jinzo vs torrential tribute

Just thought that I would add something to this discussion:

"Royal Oppression" is another card that has the ability to negate summons.

Special Summons only... and if I recall, this and "Last Turn" were the 2 cards from the PGD that don't have any official rulings yet because they were going to make Kevin have a hemorrhage.

Heck I tackled "Last Turn", I think I can manage this one too.

- A

Even still, theoretically it should be legal to use it to negate special summons from hand like Dark Necrofear etc. going by the Horn/SJ mechanic.

Of course what i'm saying right now is not correct according to the rules, but according to the logic of response chains it makes sense.

Royal Oppression
Continuous Trap

Pay 800 Life Points to negate a Special Summon of a monster and the effect of a card that Special Summons a monster and destroy it. Both you and your opponent can use this effect as long as this card remains face-up on the field.


From the way I read that, it can a) negate the Special Summon of a monster the way HoH/SJ can and b) negate the effect of a card that can cause a Special Summon (Monster Reborn, Call of the Haunted, Mystic Tomato, Shining Angel, etc).

- A

 

[novastar]

I agree, unfortunately we know that you cannot use it during the "window" that Horn/SJ useduring a summon. Accoring to the rulings.

 

[densetsu_x]

I agree, unfortunately we know that you cannot use it during the "window" that Horn/SJ useduring a summon. Accoring to the rulings.

Since I'm relatively new here... where were those rulings? And also would that mean that you can't use negate a Special Summoned "Jinzo"? (Although I would gather, you could negate the effect of the card that's bringing him back to the field before it happens... akin to chaining MST to Call of the Haunted when Call is targeting Jinzo).

- A

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

Re: jinzo vs torrential tribute

.
Special Summons only... and if I recall, this and "Last Turn" were the 2 cards from the PGD that don't have any official rulings yet because they were going to make Kevin have a hemorrhage- A

Royal Oppresion is LOD-091....

(PGD-091 is Royal Tribute... easy to see where the mistake came from)