Swarm of Scarabs and the like

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Gearfried69

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I have a face down swarm of scarabs. I flip it face up attack mode and destroy a monster. I attack my opponent then using its effect I flip it back down again.

What is the difference between that and this.

I have a face up attack swarm of scarabs. I use its effect to flip it face down defense. I flip summon it destroy a monster then attack my opponent.

It is all the same thing just in a different order.
 
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The Advance Gamplay Section said:
A card's position in the Yu-Gi-Oh! TRADING CARD GAME can be changed in one of two ways:

1. A "manual" change. This is when you use your once-per-turn position change on a monster. You can't perform a manual change if the monster was Summoned or Set that turn, or if it already attacked that turn, or if its position has already changed that turn.
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Near as I can tell, there doesn't seem to be any disagreement over how this works. " . . .or if its position has already changed that turn" is clearly refering to a manual change in this instance.
2. A change because of a card effect. You CAN change the position of a card with a card effect even if it already had its position changed that turn, or attacked, or was Summoned or Set that turn.

So:

You can Set a monster like "Guardian Sphinx", Flip Summon it on your next turn (and get the effect), then flip it to face-down defense that same turn.

But you CANNOT Flip Summon it again that same turn after flipping it face-down again, because a Flip Summon requires a "manual" change and the "Guardian Sphinx"'s position has already changed this turn.
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Again, no one appears to be confused on that issue. . .
You can attack with your face-up "Guardian Sphinx", then flip it face-down. But you cannot Flip Summon it again that same turn.
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. . . Or that one . . .
If "Guardian Sphinx" is in face-up Defense Position, you can use "Guardian Sphinx"'s effect to flip it to face-down Defense Position. Also, you can then Flip Summon it that same turn. (It is not considered a change of battle position since "Guardian Sphinx" went from Defense Position to Defense Position).
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Now here is where they lose me. This paragraph insinuates that the reason Gaurdian Sphinx and the like can change thier Battle Positions from face-up to face-down (effect change) and back to face-up (manual change) is ONLY if it's starting face-up position was "in face-up Defence Position." It insinuates this by it's parentathised statement "It is not considered a change of battle position since "Guardian Sphinx" went from Defense Position to Defense Position."

But in the paragraph labeled 2) it very clearly states that "You CAN change the position of a card with a card effect even if it already had its position changed that turn, or attacked, or was Summoned or Set that turn."

That's just confusing. I understand Book of Moon's reaosnings because were talking about the Battle Phase here. The monster in question declared an attack and blew it's manual position change for the turn. However I don't think that was refering to a card effect as I should be able to Book of Taiyou that monster in Main Phase 2.

I cannot reconcile the two statements with the existing Game Mechanics as they are. Both statements cannot be correct. Near as I can tell this statement was just worded badly. The effect of being able to move Stealth Bird from Face-up Attack Mode to Face-Down Defence Mode is an effect change and doesn't count towards your free once-per-turn manual position change.
"All of these restrictions only apply to your free once-per-turn battle position change. In all of these cases, you can change the battle position of a monster using a card effect such as "Bite Shoes", "Book of Taiyou", or "Book of Moon.""
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If were talking outside of the Battle Phase and on turn after it was summoned or set here, then my face-up Stealth Bird can flip itself face-down (effect change) and I can flip it face-up (manual change) to deal 1000 points of effect damage and it stays face-up and vunerable. (Stupid 700 ATK)

So far, I have seen no other resonings presented that could convince me (or another thinking player) otherwise.
 
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Darkness Approaches gives you more options when it comes to managing flip-type or regular effect monsters on the field. Say you have Black Luster Soldier in face-up attack. Use his effect to remove a face-down or face-up monster from play in Main Phase 1, discard 2 cards to the Graveyard (maybe a light and Dark, we'll say Jinzo and Airknight Parshath), Call of the Haunted Jinzo, Premature Burial on Airknight, "flip summon" BLS, and attack with BLS, Jinzo, and Airknight in your Battle Phase.

Darkness Approaches still activates flip-type effects when the card is attacked and flipped face-up or flip summoned.
 
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Digital Jedi said:
But in the paragraph labeled 2) it very clearly states that "You CAN change the position of a card with a card effect even if it already had its position changed that turn, or attacked, or was Summoned or Set that turn."

That's just confusing. I understand Book of Moon's reaosnings because were talking about the Battle Phase here. The monster in question declared an attack and blew it's manual position change for the turn. However I don't think that was refering to a card effect as I should be able to Book of Taiyou that monster in Main Phase 2.
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All its saying is that even if I Book of Moon your monster on your turn, you can still activate Book of Taiyou or any other effect of a card that would flip it face-up.

I can flip it face-down on your turn, but you can put it back up without a manual flip, using the effect of a Spell, Trap, or Monster.
 
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masterwoo0 said:
All its saying is that even if I Book of Moon your monster on your turn, you can still activate Book of Taiyou or any other effect of a card that would flip it face-up.

I can flip it face-down on your turn, but you can put it back up without a manual flip, using the effect of a Spell, Trap, or Monster.
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Um . . . didin't I say that?
 
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Gearfried69 said:
Is that in the rulebook or on the official site? My friend does it the second way and he will probably want to see it himself.
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Its all about the position of the monster before the flip.... If it is in face up defense position, and is flipped down, you may then flip it up cuz it did not change its position yet. If it is in faceup attack position and is flipped down, it changed from attack to def..... therefore you may not change that position once again this turn unless it is by effect of the monster or a spell or trap card..... That is why you cannot flip down from ATK position then back up to attack position, but CAN flip summon THEN flip it down by effect... make sense??


ps... dont over complicate the answer people... ... i think some people think too much and forget about the regular game mechanics approach.... have a good day !!
 
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kingpinopie said:
Its all about the position of the monster before the flip.... If it is in face up defense position, and is flipped down, you may then flip it up cuz it did not change its position yet. If it is in faceup attack position and is flipped down, it changed from attack to def..... therefore you may not change that position once again this turn unless it is by effect of the monster or a spell or trap card..... That is why you cannot flip down from ATK position then back up to attack position, but CAN flip summon THEN flip it down by effect... make sense??


ps... dont over complicate the answer people... ... i think some people think too much and forget about the regular game mechanics approach.... have a good day !!
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We are not overthinking it. The flip face-down in your example was an effect change and there is no game mechanic that says that you do not get your free once-per-turn manual position change because you used the effect change (other then after an attack was declared with said monster) on that same turn.
 
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Digital Jedi said:
Near as I can tell, there doesn't seem to be any disagreement over how this works. " . . .or if its position has already changed that turn" is clearly refering to a manual change in this instance.
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Hang on DJ, the way you worded that makes it sound like there is a conflict. Do you think that a manual position change can be made to a monster after an effect position change has been done to that same monster? Your statement above makes it seem like you do, and that's the crux of the argument here. I have stated that once a cards position has changed, regardless of how it was done, it cannot be changed again that turn by a manual change. And that's what has gotten CraniumX's dander going. I've always figured that I could not take a face-up attack position monster, flip him face down defense with his own effect, and then flip summon him in face-up attack position all in the same turn. And CraniumX has apparently done and had that done for some time.

CraniumX - The position of a monster is either attack or defense. The state of the card is either face up or face down. Two different attributes for two different, but related things. You don't have "defense position spell cards", for instance...That's why face-up/face-down are not considered positions. A face-up card summons a monster on the field. A face-down card does not summon one, but one will instantly appear if attacked.

Aside from that, my curiosity is stoked by one of the statements: If a monster is flipped into face down attack mode, can he be flip summoned when the very definition of flip summoning says it is moving the monster from face down defense to face up attack. I think he's got a very good point there. Maybe you could only use effects to flip it back up, or if the opponent attack it would active flip effects (but not flip summon effects). Very curious question.
 
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novastar said:
As far as i understand, the UDE (NA) and Konami (JPN) rulings differ in the area.

You are allowed to manually change the Battle Position (Flip Summon) even after Book of Moon is used on a face-up Attack Position monster.
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The way it often is played and the likelyhood of that I can confirm from last year's world championship. It cost a Japanesse player a quarter final match. The ruling from the U.S. judges and confirmed by Kevin, however, is that it may not. Since that time the ruling hasn't changed. If there was a problem I'm sure there would have been some serious discussion on the matter....and there was not.
 
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JOls said:
Hang on DJ, the way you worded that makes it sound like there is a conflict. Do you think that a manual position change can be made to a monster after an effect position change has been done to that same monster? Your statement above makes it seem like you do, and that's the crux of the argument here. I have stated that once a cards position has changed, regardless of how it was done, it cannot be changed again that turn by a manual change. And that's what has gotten CraniumX's dander going. I've always figured that I could not take a face-up attack position monster, flip him face down defense with his own effect, and then flip summon him in face-up attack position all in the same turn. And CraniumX has apparently done and had that done for some time.
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JOls, as the remainder of that paticular post indicates I do indeed agree with CraniumX. And he's not the only one I've seen use this effect this way as I've seen it done his way by many players (including judges) for over a year now. And I've never heard anything contradictory towards that paticular play.

Until now.

If you read a little further you see where I quote to the FAQ and it very clearly says: "2. A change because of a card effect. You CAN change the position of a card with a card effect even if it already had its position changed that turn, or attacked, or was Summoned or Set that turn."

Where do we come to the conclusion that this is only talking about from one position and not from the other?

I also already noted the Gaurdian Sphinx statement in that same post. It only insinuates that it goes from face-up to face-down to face-up again because it never truly changed Battle Positions. But to insinuate that is contradictory to the previous statement.
 
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Digital Jedi said:
JOls, as the remainder of that paticular post indicates I do indeed agree with CraniumX. And he's not the only one I've seen use this effect this way as I've seen it done his way by many players (including judges) for over a year now. And I've never heard anything contradictory towards that paticular play.
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Ok, thanks for the clarity on your position
Until now.

If you read a little further you see where I quote to the FAQ and it very clearly says: "2. A change because of a card effect. You CAN change the position of a card with a card effect even if it already had its position changed that turn, or attacked, or was Summoned or Set that turn."

Where do we come to the conclusion that this is only talking about from one position and not from the other?
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We don't. If you're referencing the fact that you can flip summon a monster (manual change) and then use an effect to flip it back down into face-down defense position as being legal, it's because it is. the second position change is due to an effect, which overrides the game mechanics. When you try to do it the other way around, switch a face-up attack position monster into face down defense, then you have just used your once per turn change, even if you had to use an effect to do it. Now you cannot use a manual change to change his position back to face-up attack. That is why it is illegal. It says you have a once per turn manual change IF THE POSITION HAS NOT ALREADY CHANGED. It does not say "you can use your once per turn manual change if you have not already used your once per turn manual change" because that would be very redundant. Even "You can use your once per turn manual change unless you have already used it" would also be redundant.

If it has changed by an effect, you've lost your once per turn manual change.


I also already noted the Gaurdian Sphinx statement in that same post. It only insinuates that it goes from face-up to face-down to face-up again because it never truly changed Battle Positions. But to insinuate that is contradictory to the previous statement.
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No, it very specifically says that it is a face-up DEFENSE position guardian sphynx. The purpose was to illustrate the flipping a card over did not change it's battle position, and thus it still can. That very clearly delineates the difference between flipping a card, and switching it's position.
 
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JOls said:
If it has changed by an effect, you've lost your once per turn manual change.
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Again I don't see anywhere in that Advance Gameplay page where it says once you've used the effect you've burned your manual position change for the turn.

No, it very specifically says that it is a face-up DEFENSE position guardian sphynx. The purpose was to illustrate the flipping a card over did not change it's battle position, and thus it still can. That very clearly delineates the difference between flipping a card, and switching it's position.
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As I said this is the only thing thart would insinuate that for the flip to go from face-up to face-down to face-up again is if GS was in defence mode to begin with. But that's very unclear. Why would an effect change burn your free once-per-turn change without a B.K.S.S.?
 
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Digital Jedi said:
Again I don't see anywhere in that Advance Gameplay page where it says once you've used the effect you've burned your manual position change for the turn.
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Here it is, with italicized comments for clarity.
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]A card's position in the Yu-Gi-Oh! TRADING CARD GAME can be changed in one of two ways:

1. A "manual" change. One way to change the position is through a manual change. What is a manual change? This is when you use your once-per-turn position change on a monster. manual change now defined. When can't you do a manual change? You can't perform a manual change if the monster was Summoned or Set that turn, or if it already attacked that turn, or if its position has already changed that turn note that it does not say if you have already done a manual change during that turn, it says if the position has changed. That's broader than just a manual change. A manual change is one type of position change. An effect change is another type, which is defined in #2.

2. A change because of a card effect. You CAN change the position of a card with a card effect even if it already had its position changed that turn meaning that you changed it through some other card effect or a manual change, or attacked, or was Summoned or Set that turn.

[/font][/font]It's black and white. No, sorry, it's bold and italic. It's obvious to me that a manual change is restricted to the condition that the card position cannot have changed. It's very clear, just sometimes hard to see when you want it the other way ;)
 
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As I said.... whether it is flipped down by its own effect, or by Book of Moon, or whatever doesnt really matter.... what matters is what position that monster was in BEFORE it was flipped down..... thats it. IF it is in Face up DEFENSE.... it CAN BE FLIP SUMMONED..... if it is in face up ATTACK, then flipped down, it CANNOT BE FLIP SUMMONED.(because it changed battle position).... You can change battle position as often as you want by a card effect, but you cannot do it MANUALLY if it has already been changed this turn.... unless I am missing something rediculous, its not as complicated as it is being made out to be on this thread.... really it isn't

PS: Nice JOIs.... very clear explaining....
 
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