Targets and activation eligability

Ah yes, targets; possibly one of the most frustrating aspects of Yu-Gi-Oh for a judge. At least in one sense; the sense that there are no clear cut rules on determining if a card targets or not. A judge can not always determine is a card is targeting or not based on the card's text, the only clear cut way to determine this, just by looking at a card's text, is if the card has written on it "specifically designate", "target", or "designate". The most basic rule of determining if a card has a targeting effect or not is if a card requires an opponent to announce its mark then the card is has a targeting effect. Another rule, which is always true, is that targets are announced at activation.
The most common annoyance in relationship to the topic at hand is Creature Swap. Creature Swap is not a targeting effect because Creature Swap's marks are chosen at resolution, not activation; but why? The reason is that it is an effect that requires both players to chose a monster. Creature Swap uses the word "select", this trend can be seen by looking at cards like Spear Cretin, The Shallow Grave, etc.
So the best guide I can give you for determining if a card targets is as follows. If a card requires the person who activates it to announce its mark then it is a targeting effect. Targets are chosen at activation. If a card allows or requires both players to do the same thing then that card's marks are chosen at resolution; this kind of card is usually coupled with the word "select".
So what happens when card A targets card B and card B is moved some place else before card A resolves? The simple answer is that card A resolves without effect. Some people, even judges, will use the word "disappears" or "fizzles", the correct terminology is "resolves without effect. So if I activate Monster Reborn targeting your Dark Magician of Chaos then you can chain Call of the Haunted and target that same Dark Magician of Chaos. Resolution happens in reverse order so Call of the Haunted resolves first Special Summoning Dark Magician of Chaos, then Monster Reborn resolves"¦ Dark Magician of Chaos is no longer in the graveyard so Monster Reborn resolves without effect.
This is true even for cards that do not technically target like Spear Cretin, The Shallow Grave or Creature Swap. If both players have one monster on the field and player A activates Creature Swap followed by player B chaining to creature swap with Compulsory Evacuation Device, targeting either monster, then Creature Swap would resolve without effect.

 

[StRiKe_NiNjA]

No one has dared address the question earlier in this thread though....and I don't blame them <smirk> Dramatic Rescue is just worded oddlly.

Can anyone give me an example of a trap card that could be activated before the end of a activation of another card effect?

If you look back in this thread you'll see why I'm asking. Dramatic Rescue states..."When your Amazoness monster is targeted...." So I'm wondering if a person would have to wait until the activation of a card is complete to activate Dramatic Rescue or as soon as your Amazoness monster is targeted....could be a big difference when it comes to targeting your Amazoness monster as a cost of activation.

To better suit your answer, it's the timing for a cards activation.

Trap Hole targets. So when a monster summoned by the opponent has a valid ATK value of 1000 or higher, the timing for Trap Hole is correct so activate it.

And what Raigekick said makes alot of sense:

I can't think of any. And, as far as I know, one can not activate a card while a chain block is resolving. That said, targeting becomes tricky. When a card targets, it targets when it is activated. This is why you can use Dramatic Rescue after an oponent uses a card that targets your Amazoness monster.

For Spirit Reaper, his continuous effect works during a targeting card's resolution, not while it is being targeted when a card is activated. This is Spirit Reaper's effect, and this is why you can save Spirit Reaper when your opponent uses Tribute to the Doom and targets Spirit Reaper and you respond with Magic Jammer.

So the moment Amazoness Swordswoman is tagretted Sakuretsu Armor, the timing for Dramatic Rescue is correct, so activate it. Then special summon Dark Magician of Chaos out of nowhere. lol

 

[StRiKe_NiNjA]

Yes, trap hole targets and it would be easy enough to chain Dramitic Rescue to it's activation....I think you're missing my point though. Lets see if I can give an example....

I have Dramatic Rescue face down from a previous turn...I have Mass Driver active on the field. I have an Amazoness Palidin face up on the field and it's main phase 2.

Now I want to target my Amazoness Paladin with Mass Driver. The problem is that when I use Mass Driver it's cost is tributing a monster. So if I want to use Mass Driver to target my own Amazoness Paladin the cost of activation for Mass Driver is tributing my Amazoness Paladin, however, if I target Amazoness Paladin as my tribute monster for Mass Driver can I break into the activation with Dramatic Rescue....since my Amazoness monster has been targeted....before it has been tributed as part of the completion of activation of Mass Driver?

See where I'm going with this?

Of course that can't be done. It's already in the graveyard.

 

[Raigekick]

I have Dramatic Rescue face down from a previous turn...I have Mass Driver active on the field. I have an Amazoness Palidin face up on the field and it's main phase 2.

Now I want to target my Amazoness Paladin with Mass Driver. The problem is that when I use Mass Driver it's cost is tributing a monster. So if I want to use Mass Driver to target my own Amazoness Paladin the cost of activation for Mass Driver is tributing my Amazoness Paladin, however, if I target Amazoness Paladin as my tribute monster for Mass Driver can I break into the activation with Dramatic Rescue....since my Amazoness monster has been targeted....before it has been tributed as part of the completion of activation of Mass Driver?

See where I'm going with this?

I can see where you are going at. You target your Amazoness for a cost for Mass Driver. But I think you won't be able to activate Dramatic Rescue since your Amazoness is not in the field anymore.

Looking at one of Dramatic Rescue's ruling:

4. If you activate "Dramatic Rescue" and your opponent chains "Ring of Destruction" and destroys the Amazoness, the Amazoness does not return to your hand and "Dramatic Rescue"'s effect disappears (so no monster is Special Summoned

You must have a face-up targeted Amazoness on the field to be able to activate Dramatic Rescue.

 

[John Danker]

I can see where you are going at. You target your Amazoness for a cost for Mass Driver. But I think you won't be able to activate Dramatic Rescue since your Amazoness is not in the field anymore.

Looking at one of Dramatic Rescue's ruling:

4. If you activate "Dramatic Rescue" and your opponent chains "Ring of Destruction" and destroys the Amazoness, the Amazoness does not return to your hand and "Dramatic Rescue"'s effect disappears (so no monster is Special Summoned

You must have a face-up targeted Amazoness on the field to be able to activate Dramatic Rescue.

Right, this is why the subject of targeting is so important here. You can't pay the cost of a monster as a tribute without targeting the monster, so, once the monster is targeted (and before it's tributed at the completion of activation) could Dramatic Rescue be activated since it's specific wording states "...when your Amazoness monster is targeted..." thus breaking into the activation of Mass Driver before the activation is complete.

Yes, I know it's a stretch, problem is the deeper I go into this game the more I realize the teeeny tiny loop holes!

 

[Raigekick]

Right, this is why the subject of targeting is so important here. You can't pay the cost of a monster as a tribute without targeting the monster, so, once the monster is targeted (and before it's tributed at the completion of activation) could Dramatic Rescue be activated since it's specific wording states "...when your Amazoness monster is targeted..." thus breaking into the activation of Mass Driver before the activation is complete.

Yes, I know it's a stretch, problem is the deeper I go into this game the more I realize the teeeny tiny loop holes!

I view a cards activation the same as tribute summoning a monster. When a monster is being tribute summoned, the Game Mechanic does not allow any player to respond or to activate anything until the whole tribute process is completed. (After that, Solemn Judgment may be activated, but it will not bring back the tributed monster because the tribute process was completed). Likewise, a card may not be activated until the whole activation process is completed. This is why you can't activate Dramatic Rescue when you use Mass Driver because you have to wait for the Mass Driver's activation process to complete ([1] Target a monster, [2] Tribute the monster, [3] Inflict 400 to opponent's LP).

 

[novastar]

Right, this is why the subject of targeting is so important here. You can't pay the cost of a monster as a tribute without targeting the monster, so, once the monster is targeted (and before it's tributed at the completion of activation) could Dramatic Rescue be activated since it's specific wording states "...when your Amazoness monster is targeted..." thus breaking into the activation of Mass Driver before the activation is complete.

Yes, I know it's a stretch, problem is the deeper I go into this game the more I realize the teeeny tiny loop holes!

No, tributing is never considered targeting. It is simply a mechanic of the game, much like destroying and when done at activation, it is a cost, and only cost.

A card is targeted when it is chosen to take part in resolution of the effect.

Dramatic Rescue is not worded oddly, it is like Big Burn, you would chain it to an effect that targets one of your Amazoness' while you build the chain, not when you resolve. It is kind of like a Counter Trap in its functionality.

If Mass Driver tributes an Amazoness as cost, it does not set up a proper trigger for Dramatic Rescue.

 

[John Danker]

I view a cards activation the same as tribute summoning a monster. When a monster is being tribute summoned, the Game Mechanic does not allow any player to respond or to activate anything until the whole tribute process is completed. (After that, Solemn Judgment may be activated, but it will not bring back the tributed monster because the tribute process was completed). Likewise, a card may not be activated until the whole activation process is completed. This is why you can't activate Dramatic Rescue when you use Mass Driver because you have to wait for the Mass Driver's activation process to complete ([1] Target a monster, [2] Tribute the monster, [3] Inflict 400 to opponent's LP).

That's exactly what LOGIC tells me, that I can't respond with Dramatic Rescue until it's activation is complete. The thing that made me wonder is that specific wording on Dramatic Rescue.

Obviously I'm looking for ways to target my own Amazoness monsters without wasting cards such as equips, traps, etc. Something that is continuous and I can activate targeting my own monsters is the best option. If I'm not mistaken Ectoplasmer doesn't tribute until resolution. This might be a better option.

 

[Raigekick]

No, tributing is never considered targeting. It is simply a mechanic of the game, much like destroying and when done at activation, it is a cost, and only cost.

You're right. I should have chosen my word correctly. It should be "Choose a monster" instead of "Target a monster". I guess I used Target to point out that if it targets, you still can't activate Dramatic Rescue. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[novastar]

Well you can use Weapon Change but it only works during your Standby and it cost's 700 LP and you can only use it 1 per turn.

But it doesn't waste cards, just your LP .

Unfortunately Pitch-Black Power Stone is limited to monster that can have counters. Otherwise it would be perfect.

 

[Raigekick]

That's exactly what LOGIC tells me, that I can't respond with Dramatic Rescue until it's activation is complete. The thing that made me wonder is that specific wording on Dramatic Rescue.

Obviously I'm looking for ways to target my own Amazoness monsters without wasting cards such as equips, traps, etc. Something that is continuous and I can activate targeting my own monsters is the best option. If I'm not mistaken Ectoplasmer doesn't tribute until resolution. This might be a better option.

I think Ectoplasmer's tribute is a cost. So, it still would not work here. Skull Lair might work, but you are limited to the number of monsters on your Graveyard.

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

Official ruling:

Tributing a monster for "Ectoplasmer" is not a cost, it's an effect, so you can't Tribute monsters unaffected by Spell Cards.

But it's not targetting.

 

[John Danker]

Blast it all there has to be a way to target my own Amazoness mosters without wasting cards!

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

Blast it all there has to be a way to target my own Amazoness mosters without wasting cards!

Different Dimension gate targets, and lets you remove an opponen'ts monster from play as well (note: DD Gate still resolves if only one targetted monster is on the field at resolution)

Edit: (deleted erroneous suggestion)

 

[John Danker]

You could give a fariy box to your opponent through exchange and hope that he/she uses it?

Different Dimension gate targets, and lets you remove an opponen'ts monster from play as well (note: DD Gate still resolves if only one targetted monster is on the field at resolution)

Oh you ARE a devious rascal aren't you....I LIKE it!

 

[skey23]

The 'Fairy Box' idea won't work....:-(

"The effect of "Fairy Box" does not target, so "Lord of D." will not prevent "Fairy Box" from reducing the ATK of an attacking Dragon-Type monster to 0."

As stated in the FAQ.

 

[novastar]

Well, Fairy Box is non-targeting, so that won't work.

Different Dimension Gate is a good choice, but will only work once, per card. So really you are still accomplishing the same thing. Using 1:1 ratio.

Although removing the opponent's monster while saving yours is definately devious.

Weapon Change as i suggested, is limited, but is re-usable.

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

The 'Fairy Box' idea won't work....:-(

Oops, I stand corrected,
"¦ geez how did i miss that, I always insist that "Passive tense" is non-targetting and fairy box is passive tense "the monster's attack becomes zero" instead of "make the monster's attack Zero" like Kazejin and others have

 

[novastar]

Oops, I stand corrected,
"¦ geez how did i miss that, I always insist that "Passive tense" is non-targetting and fairy box is passive tense "the monster's attack becomes zero" instead of "make the monster's attack Zero" like Kazejin and others have

That is not the reason why... but thats for another thread...

 

[leee]

Speaking of activation, I need an explanation:
in the opposing turn in which moments he is can to activate a trap or magic card as first chain link of a chain? (excluding the phase of battle)
Particularly is possible to activate a card in draw phase, after the opponent draws a card, in standby phase and in end phase, in these cases the opponent cannot activate any card as first chain link in how much I have the priority' of activation.
Is possible to activate a trap at the end of the main phase opposing , if the opponent summon a monster and directly passes in battle phase?
example: does the opponent summon mirage dragon, do I have set a ring of destruction, considering that I cannot activate him/it in battle phase, and even in answer to an summon, can I activate him/it at the end of the main phase1 when the opponent declares to enter battle?
Thanks to everybody

 

[novastar]

Speaking of activation, I need an explanation:
in the opposing turn in which moments he is can to activate a trap or magic card as first chain link of a chain? (excluding the phase of battle)
Particularly is possible to activate a card in draw phase, after the opponent draws a card, in standby phase and in end phase, in these cases the opponent cannot activate any card as first chain link in how much I have the priority' of activation.
Is possible to activate a trap at the end of the main phase opposing , if the opponent summon a monster and directly passes in battle phase?
example: does the opponent summon mirage dragon, do I have set a ring of destruction, considering that I cannot activate him/it in battle phase, and even in answer to an summon, can I activate him/it at the end of the main phase1 when the opponent declares to enter battle?
Thanks to everybody

The grammer here (im assuming that you used a translator) is a bit hard to put together but im going to guess at what you are asking.

Question: Can i activate an effect as the first link in a chain my Opponent's turn?

Answer: Yes, you can.

Example

{Draw Phase}

[event] Turn Player draws 1 card

~Response Chain (Draw Response)

Turn Player passes
Opponent (you) activates "Drop Off"

[OP Chain Link 1] Drop Off

As you can see... "you" (even though its not your turn) have an effect that is the first link in the chain.

Question: Is it possible to activate an effect when the Turn Player declares the end of a Phase? Will it be the first link in the chain?

Answer: Yes, you can. Yes, it will.

Example

{Main Phase}

Turn Player declares the end of the Main Phase 1 (Passes to end)
Opponent (you) activates "Ring of Destruction"

[OP Chain Link 1] Ring of Destruction (target -> any face-up monster)

As you can see, declaring the end of a Phase is a "Pass" by the Turn Player and you can activate in response to that. You will be the first link in the chain.

Hope that helps ...anything else just ask.