This really wrecked my self confidence :(

J

Jason_C

Banned
Ok, so I'm asked to make a ruling, and I say sure, and then he says something that tears me apart.
P1 (Sean) controls Pandemonium, and uses turn player priority to summon warrior of zera. Since summons do not use the chain, P1 retains priority, and may activate an effect. He choses to tribute Warrior of Zera to summon Mazera Deville. Lindsay (P2) is not happy. She claims that turn player priority is ONLY to ACTIVATE effects, and that inherent summoning effects NEVER ACTIVATE, therefore, she has an opportunity to Trap Hole Zera before he can be tributed. Her logic seems almost sound to me, except for one thing: YGO is an event driven game, and consists of one event after another, with priority determining who's turn it is to create an event. So, if priority cannot be used for inherent summoning effects, how does BLS ever get on the field? And if it CAN be used for that, doesn't this seem potentially quite abusable? As though, if it had been Archlord Zerato instead of Mazera, Lindsay never would've had an opportunity to save her monsters?
Like I said, I was really torn here. Eventually I ruled in favor of Sean, but... I dunno.
-pssvr
 
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Then it is a condition placed on the card, rather than an effect? BUT, hypothetically, you're saying that if a card did have an internal ignition effect to summon itself, then you could do that? Would Gilasaurus work?
-pssvr
 
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Turn Player Priority does not give the Turn Player the ability to summon a monster 1st. It simply means the Turn Player retains the right to respond to events 1st.
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Yay me!..Ok, let me further try to explain this, forgive me if it seems belittling, it's not intended to be. And I could be WAAAAAY off on some of this stuff as well.

I'll use your example:
P1 has "Pandemonium" active on the field and no other monsters or Spell/Traps on the field.
P1 has "Warrior of Zera" and "Mazera DeVille" in hand.
P2 has a face down "Trap Hole". (That's all that matters here.)
P1 Draws a card (game mechanic, not optional), P1 retains Priority to respond to the Draw. P1 does not wish to respond, so Priority is passed to P2. P2 does not wish to respond. Priority is now gone for responding to the Draw. P1 or P2 can now activate Spell Speed 2 or 3 Spell/Traps if Appropriate. There is no priority at this point as neither player is 'responding' to an event.
P1 wants to end Draw Phase, P2 agrees, so they move to Standby Phase.
P1 retains Priority again to respond to this phase change. P1 passes, P2 passes. Priority is now gone for response to phase change. P1 or P2 can now activate Spell Speed 2 or 3 Spell/Traps if Appropriate. There is no priority at this point as neither player is 'responding' to an event.
P1 wants to end Standby Phase, P2 agrees, so they move to Main Phase 1.
P1 retains Priority again to respond to this phase change. P1 passes, P2 passes. Priority is now gone for response to phase change. P1 or P2 can now activate Spell Speed 2 or 3 Spell/Traps if Appropriate. There is no priority at this point as neither player is 'responding' to an event.
P1 decides to Summon "Warrior of Zera". There is NO Priority with this decision. It's a game mechanic. P1 declares Summon of "Warrior of Zera", P2 can respond with "Horn of Heaven"/"Solemn Judgment" if they want to, but they don't, so the Summon is successful. NOW, the turn player again retains Priority here, BUT, they are limited on what they can use with said Priority.
- They are limited to Ignition effects of monsters currently face-up on the Turn Player's side. P1 has no such monsters.
- They are limited to the Ignition effect of the monster they just summoned. P1 has no such monsters.
- They are limited to Spell Speed 2 or 3 Spell/Trap cards, if timing is correct. P1 has no such cards.

The Turn Player CANNOT activate Spell Speed 1 effects from the hand. "Mazera DeVille"s effect is activated from the hand, for lack of a better explanation, and thus CANNOT be a part of P1s Priority after the Summon.

Since P1 does not have any qualifying monsters, cards, or effects for Priority, they must pass to P2, who can respond with Appropriate monsters, cards, or effects as well. Since P2 has a face-down "Trap Hole", they activate it. P1 can now chain to "Trap Hole", but can't. The "Warrior of Zera" is destroyed, and P1 no longer has the ability to Special Summon "Mazera DeVille".

I hope this wasn't tooo inaccurate.

and I hope this helped...some.
 
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I liked what you said. I've now pretty much grasped the concept that Mazera cannot be summoned using summoning priority. HOWEVER, I still think there is a problem here. Correct me if I'm wrong (and I probably am), but isn't it true that priority is always either mine or yours? There is no points in the duel where neither player has priority; it is ALWAYS somebody's turn to either initate a flow of events, or pass that turn to the opponent, right? So when you say:
P1 decides to Summon "Warrior of Zera". There is NO Priority with this decision. It's a game mechanic.
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How is that possible? Don't you have to have priority in order to do ANYTHING, including summon? You can't really summon when your opponent has priority. And I think we also have an issue wuth phases ending:
so they move to Standby Phase.
P1 retains Priority again to respond to this phase change. P1 passes, P2 passes. Priority is now gone for response to phase change. P1 or P2 can now activate Spell Speed 2 or 3 Spell/Traps if Appropriate. There is no priority at this point as neither player is 'responding' to an event.
P1 wants to end Standby Phase, P2 agrees, so they move to Main Phase 1.
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There are too many chain points there. While there can be an infinite number of chains in the Standby Phase, once both players pass priority consecutively during a non-responsive window (a game mechanic I just made up), the phase is over. In other words, if no event is being responded to, and both players pass priority, the phase MUST end.
-pssvr
 
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pssvr said:
There are too many chain points there.
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Actually, I left out the chain points for the ending of a phase. I only put in the chain points for the beginning of a phase, so there are actually even MORE chain points than I mentioned! lol.
pssvr said:
While there can be an infinite number of chains in the Standby Phase, once both players pass priority consecutively during a non-responsive window (a game mechanic I just made up), the phase is over. In other words, if no event is being responded to, and both players pass priority, the phase MUST end.
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Ok, so what you're saying is this. If I summon a monster, then pass priority to my opponent, and they pass back, the response window is closed. Now, since I don't 'immediately' activate something else, then Main Phase 1 must end now? :confused: That doesn't make any sense..lol.
 
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That is basically what I'm saying. A phase can only continue as long as SOMETHING is happening. The game state is never "we're waiting". It's always something. Let's say I summon Warrior of Zera, no one chooses to use the "Horn of Heaven" window, and then no one uses the "Bottomless Trap Hole" window. Now, the opportunity to respond to the summon is gone. The ball is in my court to either initiate a new event, or pass priority. I pass. You pass again. Since we were in a non-responsive window, and we both passed, the main phase is now OVER. The opportunity to summon Mazera is gone.
-pssvr
 
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Ok, so what happens in this situation?

I summon a monster, and pass Priority, fully expecting them to activate "Bottomless Trap Hole" or "Torrential Tribute". They also pass, which throws off my plan. The Summon response windows is now gone, and we're now in a 'non-response window'. So now I have to look at my cards and figure out what I wanna do now. If it takes me a little bit to get situated, you're saying that I've missed the ability to activate "Brain Control" or "Lightning Vortex" during Main Phase 1 because as soon as we entered the 'non-respone window', that Main Phase 1 should have ended? Again, that just doesn't make any sense..lol.

Also, remember, a phase is NOT over until both players agree it's over, it doesn't just end.
 
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Simon, you SERIOUSLY need to write down that "scenario" you mented above and have it stickyed some where relating to Priority. I think that is an AWESOME way to show people how it all plays out. You can easily swap out Warrior of Zera for an Exiled Force into this mix and see how things would change.

It also helps demonstrate how summons are not an event to chain to, only respond to. Because if they were chainable. I'd have to declare "I am going to summon Terrorking Archfiend" at which point my opponent could chain Raigeki Break to destroy my Infernalqueen on the field, thus making the summon void, given Terrorking's requirements. However this isn't the case and your example shows why.
 
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Reply to you one at a time. Skey:
I'm sorry, that's not what I meant. YGO is not a race of time, as I'm sure you know. Let's take your example: You summon a monster and pass, and the opponent also passes, which is not what you expected. You have now entered a non-responsive window. You may certainly activate more effects, summon more monsters, etc. during this main phase. What you MAY NOT DO, is activate your own Torrential Tribute anymore, that window is gone. And if you pass AGAIN, without activating anything else, and the opponent also passes, now the main phase is over. That's what I'm saying.
-pssvr
 
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Forgive me if I try to clarify this a bit.

I'll use your example:
P1 has "Pandemonium" active on the field and no other monsters or Spell/Traps on the field.
P1 has "Warrior of Zera" and "Mazera DeVille" in hand.
P2 has a face down "Trap Hole". (That's all that matters here.)
P1 Draws a card (game mechanic, not optional), P1 retains Priority to respond to the Draw. P1 does not wish to respond, so Priority is passed to P2. P2 does not wish to respond. Priority is now gone for responding to the Draw. P1 or P2 can now activate Spell Speed 2 or 3 Spell/Traps if Appropriate. There is no priority at this point as neither player is 'responding' to an event. Player 1 has "priority to activate a spell speed 2 here. Player 2 must wait for Player 1 to pass on the opportunity to activate a Spell Speed 2 here (not responding to the draw but just the opportunity to begin a chain).
P1 wants to end Draw Phase, P2 agrees, so they move to Standby Phase.
P1 retains Priority again to respond to this phase change. P1 passes, P2 passes. Priority is now gone for response to phase change. P1 or P2 can now activate Spell Speed 2 or 3 Spell/Traps if Appropriate. There is no priority at this point as neither player is 'responding' to an event. Same as above there is always "Priority" the turn player has first opportunity to begin a chain. Otherwise there would be too many questions about who can activate what when.
P1 wants to end Standby Phase, P2 agrees, so they move to Main Phase 1.
P1 retains Priority again to respond to this phase change. P1 passes, P2 passes. Priority is now gone for response to phase change. P1 or P2 can now activate Spell Speed 2 or 3 Spell/Traps if Appropriate. There is no priority at this point as neither player is 'responding' to an event. Ditto
P1 decides to Summon "Warrior of Zera". There is NO Priority with this decision. It's a game mechanic. P1 declares Summon of "Warrior of Zera", P2 can respond with "Horn of Heaven"/"Solemn Judgment" if they want to, but they don't, so the Summon is successful. NOW, the turn player again retains Priority here, BUT, they are limited on what they can use with said Priority.
- They are limited to Ignition effects of monsters currently face-up on the Turn Player's side. P1 has no such monsters.
- They are limited to the Ignition effect of the monster they just summoned. P1 has no such monsters.
- They are limited to Spell Speed 2 or 3 Spell/Trap cards, if timing is correct. P1 has no such cards.
Priority after a summon or other non-chainable event is the opportunity to start a response chain. There can not be another non-chainable event at this point because there is a game state change that is being responded to. (With the possible exception of Last Will but we'll try to look past that.)

The Turn Player CANNOT activate Spell Speed 1 effects from the hand. "Mazera DeVille"s effect is activated from the hand, for lack of a better explanation, and thus CANNOT be a part of P1s Priority after the Summon.
Mazera isn't spell speed 1, it is a summoning condition. You can't summon another monster after a summon because that would not be creating a Response Chain.

Since P1 does not have any qualifying monsters, cards, or effects for Priority, they must pass to P2, who can respond with Appropriate monsters, cards, or effects as well. Since P2 has a face-down "Trap Hole", they activate it. P1 can now chain to "Trap Hole", but can't. The "Warrior of Zera" is destroyed, and P1 no longer has the ability to Special Summon "Mazera DeVille".


Excellent overall descriptions I'm just trying to keep some steps clearly defined.
 
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Word, and no, you didn't say you could chain to a summon, I was throwing out a hypothetical there on what could happen if summoning a monster actually had a spell speed and was a chainable event.
 
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Which is why I always have said it would be easier to understand if they DID make summons chainable. Call it spell speed 4, chainable ONLY by spell speed three, yet capable of initiating a chain. Then maybe people would finally grasp Mobius vs Horn of Heaven/Bottomless Trap Hole, and how in one case the effect goes through, while in the other it does not.
-pssvr
 
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pssvr said:
Which is why I always have said it would be easier to understand if they DID make summons chainable. Call it spell speed 4, chainable ONLY by spell speed three, yet capable of initiating a chain. Then maybe people would finally grasp Mobius vs Horn of Heaven/Bottomless Trap Hole, and how in one case the effect goes through, while in the other it does not.
-pssvr
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"Royal Oppression" is spell speed 2, but its effect can be activated with the same timing as Horn of Heaven.
 
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One of these days I'm gonna get tired of being thrown at everybody!:tssk:

For those who didn't make the connection...:drugged:

My name is Simon Key, think of monkeys and look at my name again. ;)
 
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