Thousand Eyes Restrict and Book of Moon

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soulwarrior

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Hi,

here's a really good question (at least I think so) from a German player:

OK, I special summon my Thousand Eyes Restrict and use my priority to activate its effect and attach a monster to it, then my opponent chains Book of Moon.

So: The Book of Moon puts the TER face-down and as we all know, an Equip Spell Card can only equip a face-up monster on the field.
BUT the effect of the TER is already in the chain...

I don't know for sure, but I would say that the Monster would be sent to the Grave, am I right???

In other words: How do you resolve this chain???


My answer was like this:

You were absolutely right. Since the effect of the TER is already in the chain, the opponents monster becomes an Equip Spell Card which has no legal target (TER is face-down) and therefore, it would be sent to the Grave.

What would you say???

I think, this must be the right answer.... but it's always better do discuss this with some other people! ^^
And since I promised this German player, I would forward his questions to some other people with some rulings knowledge... I count on you! :)

soul
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My take on this was that at the activation of TER's effect, you choose the target card to equip to it and the 'sucking up' of the monster only occurs at resolution. In this situation, since TER is facedown at resolution, its effect doesn't properly resolve. I may be wrong here and if I am, someone please correct me. Its always good to learn. =)
 
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According to my logics, I'm going to say the same thing as mortals.

The only thing that happens at activation is the targeting.

When in chain, this happens:

CL1: TER targets Gemini Elf
CL2: BoM targets TER

Resolve:
CL2: TER is flipped into face-down DEF position
CL1: Since it's face-down, nothing happens.
 
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Thanks for your guesses...

I absolutely understand your thought's, but if you use for example Black Luster Soldier's Trigger Effect (remove a monster) and your oppponent chains Book of Moon, what happens???

Yeah, as far as I know it's resolved correctly, if the Trigger Effect is already in the chain, it is NOT important if the monster with the <activated> Trigger Effect was turned face-down or removed from the field.

That's what I think and therfore, you might be wrong...

---------------------- some more -----------------------------

It would be a different situation if a Trigger Effect would be resolved in a NEW CHAIN AFTER the resolution of the ongoing chain... then the Trigger Effect IS NOT in the (ongoing) chain and therefore, it would NOT be resolved at all.
Think of Spirit Reaper targeted by Book of Moon

-> Reapers's Trigger has Spell Speed 1
-> Therefore, it can't be chained to another effect
-> Therefore, it's resolved in a NEW chain after the ongoing chain
-> and in the new chain, he's already face-down (due to Book's effect in the preceding chain)

Yeah.... I will continue to confuse you with another examples... 'til you say I'm right! *loooooooooooool*

soul
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Here's your answer.

Activating Relinquishes effect is of spell speed 1. Book of Moon is spell speed 2.

Chain: First Link: Activation of TER's effect.
Second Link: Activation of Book of Moon.

All chains resolve backwards.

Resolution: Book of Moon resolves first flipping TER f/d on the field.
Since TER is no longer f/u on the field, it's effect disappears.
 
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Well, I think that the difference between TER and BLS against Book of Moon is that the resolution of the effect is still possible for BLS, even if it is flipped face-down [the selected monster may be removed, there is no special restiction].

When TER is flipped face-down, the ruling of Equip cards for face-down monsters doesn't allow it to perform its effect completely [face-down monsters can't be equipped], therefore it won't work.

Those cards that specifically affect themselves, like TER and Spirit Reaper, cannot perform their effects with Book of Moon, since they become illegal targets.
 
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talk about missing the boat. =)

Aqua, we are actually discussing on whether the opponent's monster DOES or DOES NOT become an equip due to TER being flipped face down. =)
 
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Oh, that's a really good point.

Does the effect of the TER specifically designate a target -> itself???

You might be absolutely right.... and Spirit Reaper would be the same case...

And as we all should know:
Effects, which specifically designate a target will disappear, if the target is incorrect at the resolution of the effect.

If the TER is specifically designating itself as a target for its effect, its effect would SURELY disappear, when a Book is chained to its effect.

But I'm not sure if it specifically designates itself as a target, I would rather say, the TER designates the opponents monster as a target.
In this case... the target would be correct at resolution of TER's effect...
and therefore, it could still be true that the monster would become a Equip -> has no legal target -> is SENT (NOT destroyed) to Grave...

Sorry, but I'm still not sure, which one is the correct answer...

soul
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Cha said:
Well, helpoemer and I already answered...
Click to expand...

Yeah, I mentioned it and I'm thanful for that!

But you have your point of view -> if TER is face-down, the monster won't become an Equip Spell Card
and I have my point of view -> if TER is face-down, the monster becomes an Equip Spell Card (and will be sent to Grave, because it has no legal target).

Have I missed a point?
Sorry, if we could find a official statement or something like that... or are you absolutely sure???

I don't know your position, if you're a high man at UDE which MAKES the rules (like Kevin e. g.), then I won't argue anymore! ;)

soul
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I don't think TER actually targets itself, but doesn't it make sense that if you activate TER's effect, and Book of Moon is activated, flipping TER face-down, it is not a valid target for an Equip Spell Card, so the Equip Spell Card can't equip? oo; That's what seems logical to me, but maybe I'm wrong. :|
 
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I think that Mortals, Cha and Helpoemer316 are right.

The point here is that that the effect of "Thousand Eyes Restrict" won't be ale to resolve. Just remember that the monster is equipped by the effect of "Thousand Eyes Restrict" and as it is face down it can not resolve and will disappear.


Now I give you this point: Those it target itself or not ??? :? :? :?

Now i got confused...... :-o :roll:
 
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Well, It seems I confused you people with all the targeting stuff, when trying to make myself clear. Sorry.
The part of targeting itself in these special effects doesn't sound pretty good, now that I really think about it.

Let me fix my mistake. Better than targeting, let's talk about conditioning.

Conditions are events that must happen when a card is activated or resolving to do its effect without fizzling, doing nothing or whatever you like to call it.

A selected target is a condition for some cards: Equip cards or Ring of Destruction [Condition: A face-up monster that was selected as a target]. If the target is destroyed in a chain, the activated card does not resolve its effect properly as conditions haven't been met.

So, let's review conditions of certain cards:

Black Luster Soldier - EotB : The targeted monster must be on the field at the resolution.
Book of Moon : The targeted face-up monster must be on the field and face-up at the resolution.
Creature Swap : There must be at least one monster whose control can change in each side of the field at activation and resolution.
Exchange: There must be at least one card in each player's hand at activation and resolution.
Spirit Reaper: The Spirit Reaper that was targeted must have been face-up at both the activation and resolution of the targeting effect.
TER: The targeted monster and the face-up TER must be on the field at the resolution.

So it is not targeting itselves as I said previously. It is being part of a condition that has to be met.

Sorry for all the confusion. I don't know what was I eating. :p
 
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But, TER's effect is target, it targets the monster it absorbs.

I'm serious, check TER rulings, they'll say that it's a targetting effect.

TER's effect does disappear btw, after further though, I realize more so why. TER's effect is activated after it's summon, it's effect doesn't come into play automatically like Jinzo, etc. The controller of TER activates the effect of absortion, so therefore it can be chained to, the effect is spell speed 1, if BoM is chained, BoM would resolve first before TER, since TER would now be f/d at it's resolution part, it's effect completely disappears.

It's the same case with Tribe, if Tribe is BoM in a chain to it's effect, the effect of Tribe disappears, (however they still discard a card since that was a cost at activation).
 
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You are correct, helpoemer316.

There weren't any problems about if it was targeting or not.
The problem was if TER was a target in the resolution of its own effect [being equipped]. Something that I said and later rejected.
It was all part or a confusion I provoked. Sorry. :oops:
 
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helpoemer316 said:
But, TER's effect is target, it targets the monster it absorbs.

I'm serious, check TER rulings, they'll say that it's a targetting effect.

TER's effect does disappear btw, after further though, I realize more so why. TER's effect is activated after it's summon, it's effect doesn't come into play automatically like Jinzo, etc. The controller of TER activates the effect of absortion, so therefore it can be chained to, the effect is spell speed 1, if BoM is chained, BoM would resolve first before TER, since TER would now be f/d at it's resolution part, it's effect completely disappears.

It's the same case with Tribe, if Tribe is BoM in a chain to it's effect, the effect of Tribe disappears, (however they still discard a card since that was a cost at activation).
Click to expand...

If the monster is not face-up on the field at the resolution of its effect, it can still resolve. Otherwise, Cannon Soldier tributing itself for its own effect would cause it to negate itself (since it wouldn't be on the field at resolution of its effect). The reason TER's effect wouldn't work is simply this: It is in face-down Defense position. An Equip Magic/Spell Card canNOT be equipped to a face-down monster, so TER's effect would go away since it is not possible for it to resolve.
 
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Hi,

thanks a lot!
The last posts helped me a lot and make a lot of sense!!! :)

But, the thing about Tribe...
I thought it's not important for a Cost Effect's correct resolution to have the monster with the Cost Effect face-up on the field!

So I used to think that you can chain Book to Tribe's effect and it would still resolve correctly.

Am I wrong there too??

Thanks again!

soul
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From message #6228 on the Judge Group

The opponent could claim priority and activate the effect of
their "Tribe-Infecting Virus" before you can respond by activating
your "Book of Moon."

The "Book of Moon" would resolve first, turning the "Tribe-Infecting
Virus" face-down and then the effect of "Tribe-Infecting Virus" would
resolve and destroy any face-up monsters of the declared Monster Type.


------------------------
Curtis Schultz
Official UDE Netrep
CurtisSchultz_Netrep@h...
"Everytime bishop has to write "see the Netrep files," Curtis
discards a Kuriboh. Please, think of the Kuribohs."
 
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mortals said:
From message #6228 on the Judge Group

The opponent could claim priority and activate the effect of
their "Tribe-Infecting Virus" before you can respond by activating
your "Book of Moon."

The "Book of Moon" would resolve first, turning the "Tribe-Infecting
Virus" face-down and then the effect of "Tribe-Infecting Virus" would
resolve and destroy any face-up monsters of the declared Monster Type.

------------------------
Curtis Schultz
Official UDE Netrep
CurtisSchultz_Netrep@h...
"Everytime bishop has to write "see the Netrep files," Curtis
discards a Kuriboh. Please, think of the Kuribohs."
Click to expand...

I was thinking about Skill Drain at the time. I've been having a stressful past few days.
 
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