Timing Issues

Dillie-O

Dillie-O

Council of Heroes
I never thought about this in depth until recently, because I could do some interesting things with it.

So here's the scenario:
My opponent has a Bottomless Trap Hole set on the field. I begin my Main Phase 1 by playing Last Will. I then tribute summon my monster for Dark Ruler Ha Des.

Now what happens at this point? If I remember correctly, Last Will creates a continuous state, by which I can special summon a monster to the field. Being a continuous effecct, you cannot chain to this effect, as we know with numerous other continuous effects in the game.

Does this mean that immediately following the tribute summon, Last Will allows me to special summon a monster, and if I summon say, Newdoria to the field, the last effect to happen is that a monster with 1200 ATK was special summoned to the field, which would eliminate the possibility for my opponent to activate Bottomless Trap Hole?

Or do we finish the process of the tribute summon first, allowing my opponent the opportunity to respond to the summon. In which case, they will BTH my Dark Ruler, and then I will use Last Will to special summon a monster to the field?

The fiendishness in me hopes for option 1. Because there could be some interesting ramifications involved with this. Though the way the game "typically" runs seems to indicate option 2. Or there may be option 3. Where I still resolve Last Will, and then my opponent still has the opportunity to respond to the tribute summon.

Thanks in advance guys!
 
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Dillie-O said:
Well, whether or not the Tribute protection makes it into the meta remains to be seen. I was just looking for an angle with one of my favorite cards to help protect the Dark Ruler.

Low and behold I learned about 20 more things along the way! <rubs left thigh />Man, those monkey bruises stink like a bugger!

Let me know when we've had a breather and I'll throw another monkey into the mix.... 8^D
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May I sig that? Considering the monkey theme was my idea?
-pssvr
 
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skey23 said:
Wouldn't that be due to the fact that "Level Limit - Area B" is a continuous effect, and not a 'lingering' triggered event?
The ruling for "Goblin Attack Force" and "Tragedy" says it can be activated in response to a continuous effect that doesn't use the chain.
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Would the monster changing from ATK to DEF change the game state that a monster was summoned? I hadn't thought that it would, but maybe I am just not understanding which events count and which do not.
 
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I'm not sure if that is the case, but are you thinking more along the lines of activating Magic Cylinder as link 2 or three in a chain instead of chain 1. Even though its not being immediately activated in response to the declaration to the attack, since it was on the chain that was started as the result of the declaration of an attack, you can still do it? Is that what you're thinking of? I swear I heard something like that somewhere, then again, I swear I heard the term timestamping used once and I hear that doesn't exist either....
 
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Timestamp
Lingering Effect
Printed ATK

None of thes are official terminology. But what better way to explain them then by creating terms when the so properly fit? (Lest we forget Ignition Flip? :rolleyes: )
 
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John Danker said:
Care to explain to me how there can be 2 Last facts to happen?
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If a performer gives an encore is the encore alone their last perfomance, or is the entire concert the last performance?

If time were a line, nothing that ever happened would be a point on its own on that line, but everything would have to be a segment. And different events can overlap each other.

But Last Will in this case summons a monster as the result of a tributed monster.
The Tribute Summoned monsters gets summoned as a result of that same tribute.

If the same person drops 2 different things at the same time, they will hit the ground together, right?


pssvr said:
I play Monster Reborn. Game State: A monster was summoned AND a magic card just resolved.
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Wonderful example.
 
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DaGuyWitBluGlasses said:
If a performer gives an encore is the encore alone their last perfomance, or is the entire concert the last performance?

If time were a line, nothing that ever happened would be a point on its own on that line, but everything would have to be a segment. And different events can overlap each other.

But Last Will in this case summons a monster as the result of a tributed monster.
The Tribute Summoned monsters gets summoned as a result of that same tribute.

If the same person drops 2 different things at the same time, they will hit the ground together, right?
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Well not if it is a rock and a feather :)

So are you suggesting that both the tribute summoned monster and the Last Will summoned monster would be destroyed by Bottomless Trap Hole? :)
 
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pssvr said:
I play Monster Reborn. Game State: A monster was summoned AND a magic card just resolved.

But how that would apply mechanically here, I don't know.

-pssvr
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Fair enough! I'll accept that, fine example (and cud for future knawing)

That doesn't show us though how the tribute summon of a monster and Last Will's effect resolution could be considered to be two facts resolving at the same time. They are two seperate summons. The tribute summon resolves first, then the special summon from the resolution of Last Will's effect.

*EDIT*

2000 posts? My gosh....I spend FAR too much time here. I really do need to get a hobby.
 
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No, it doesn't <soft sigh> When I tribute a monster Last Will's effect triggers, the tribute monster hasn't been summoned yet. That would be like saying I can activate BTH upon the activation of a Ritual Spell Card but before the monster is summoned.
 
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Barring the possibility that Last Will's effect is non-chainable in the "instantly happens" instead of the "can't be negated because it is not actually activating" sense.

Level Limit - Area B just turns the monster to DEF, it does not "use the chain" so you are not "chaining" to the effect.

Stumbling on the other hand does "use the chain" so it would be link 1 when you summon.

At first glance there doesn't seem to be much difference. You summon Tribe Infecting Virus and he turns to DEF. But the fact that Stumbling fills the first chain link will prevent TIV from using it's effect before Bottomless Trap Hole can destroy him.

It is the same with this situation. If Last Will's summon happens "without using the chain" then the Giant Germ that was summoned by Last Will will arrive somewhere in between Dark Ruler Ha Des and the response chain timing to activate Bottomless Trap Hole. Thus bringing into question whether the effect can be used to protect the tribute summoned monster from BTH. If instead it does "use the chain" then of course BTH is just link 2 and Ha Des will be destroyed before Giant Germ arrives on the field.

-Edit- Outgunned again. Must type faster.
 
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John Danker said:
No, it doesn't <soft sigh> When I tribute a monster Last Will's effect triggers, the tribute monster hasn't been summoned yet. That would be like saying I can activate BTH upon the activation of a Ritual Spell Card but before the monster is summoned.
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No, the 2 are unrelated.

The tribute for a Tribute Summon is done as cost, and even if Last Will is truely not a chainable trigger, i highly doubt you would resolve it right then.

You would still have to wait until the summon is complete. I don't know where this "protection" theory is coming from.
 
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The "protection theory" is coming from this...

Last Will is activated

Monster is tributed (Last Will's effect is triggered)

Triubte Monster is summoned

Last Will's effect begins a new chain immediately(which sunds weird to me too since nothing can be chained to it)

If a monster is special summoned with an atk of less than 1500 then the timing for BTH is incorrect since the last thing to happen was the summoning of a monster with less than 1500 atk (not the summoning of the tribute monster with 1500 atk or greater) thereby "protecting" the tribute monster.

The theory is that no response can "fit between" the tribute summon and the special summon of Last Will since it begain a new chain immediatly following the tribute summon.
 
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...but if Last Will's effect "begins a new chain after the summon"...that would be within the Summon Response Chain of the Tribute Summon... meaning Last Will hasn't summoned anything yet. It would be just like any other Summon Trigger situation, which makes perfect sense to me.

[event] Player A Tribute Summons a monster

{Summon Response Chain}

[TP Chain Link 1] Last Will

*No monster has been summoned by Last Will yet, so the opponent can still use BTH.

[OP Chain Link 2] Bottomless Trap Hole

If we say it is "non-chainable" then the Special Summon would occur directly after the Tribute Summon completes and would actually create no timing at all, or both monster would be subject to the same timing.

[event] Player A Tribute Summons a monster

*[event] Last Will summons a monster of 1500 ATK or less.

{Summon Response Chain}

[OP Chain Link 1] Bottomless Trap Hole

Bottomless can now destroy both monsters, or only the Tribute Monster. Since they would have the same response timing (in my opinion), as long as one of them is 1500 ATK or more, BTH can be activated.

I really can't see it working any other way, as it would be just too messy.

Additionally, the monster summoned by Last Will is not necessarily immune to BTH, as you can summon a monster with exactly 1500 ATK which is a legal requirement for BTH.

"When your opponent Normal Summons, Flip Summons, or Special Summons a monster(s) with an ATK of 1500 or more"

"you can Special Summon 1 monster with an ATK of 1500 points or less from your Deck"
 
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Okay folks, I'm out of breath on this one. I've stated my thought patterns and what I've been given as a ruling. I've currently got a question in regarding response between the tribute summon and the resolution of Last Will's effect. When I hear something back on that I'll let you know. Until then, happy debating.
 
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