Timing Issues

Dillie-O

Dillie-O

Council of Heroes
I never thought about this in depth until recently, because I could do some interesting things with it.

So here's the scenario:
My opponent has a Bottomless Trap Hole set on the field. I begin my Main Phase 1 by playing Last Will. I then tribute summon my monster for Dark Ruler Ha Des.

Now what happens at this point? If I remember correctly, Last Will creates a continuous state, by which I can special summon a monster to the field. Being a continuous effecct, you cannot chain to this effect, as we know with numerous other continuous effects in the game.

Does this mean that immediately following the tribute summon, Last Will allows me to special summon a monster, and if I summon say, Newdoria to the field, the last effect to happen is that a monster with 1200 ATK was special summoned to the field, which would eliminate the possibility for my opponent to activate Bottomless Trap Hole?

Or do we finish the process of the tribute summon first, allowing my opponent the opportunity to respond to the summon. In which case, they will BTH my Dark Ruler, and then I will use Last Will to special summon a monster to the field?

The fiendishness in me hopes for option 1. Because there could be some interesting ramifications involved with this. Though the way the game "typically" runs seems to indicate option 2. Or there may be option 3. Where I still resolve Last Will, and then my opponent still has the opportunity to respond to the tribute summon.

Thanks in advance guys!
 
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Well, it can't be similar to Stumbling, in that Stumbling is a triggered effect, while Last Will's lingering effect is continuous.

Being continuous means that it can interrupt a chain to resolve its own effect, right? But, in this case, no chaining is occuring, since it is a summon. Its only a response issue. So, Im thinking that since the opponent always has a chance to respond to any action (and since no priority to activate effects has been issued here), that BTH could be activated in response to the summon.

After activation, and before the resolution is when I would guess that Last Will would summon the monster.

edit:Ouch! I think a blood vessel just burst in my left eye. Curse you, Dillie-O!
 
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Ok, but this situation is different than the "Sangan" scenario from last month.

This time, there isn't a mandatory triggered effect being forced in response chain as link 1. So how would the given scenario work out then? Since "Last Will"s effect isn't a chainable event, but will become link 1 in the summon response chain.
 
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Works for me! So my previous statement above would be incorrect. John's post above (#8) has, what seems to be, the correct ruling response to the given scenario.
 
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Woo Hoo! I was right! That's a good sign. And even more nasty, a potential way to protect my monsters when tribute summoned. Sure there may be a Torrential in the works, but more importantly, I figured out the mechanics! Thanks guys! 8^D
 
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Last Will's effect doesn't wait to see if there is a response to the summoning of the monster, it starts a new chain immediately after the summon.

Just like if Mysterious Puppetier is face up on the field and you summon a monster, Mysterious Puppetier doesn't wait for your opponent to respond for it's effect to activate, it does so immediately.
 
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*scribbles in notebook*
Activates...immediately..summon monster....BTH gets no response timing priority..

got it!

So, when a continuous effect like this has the ability to interrupt links in a chain activation/resolution sequence, it also has the ability to interrupt the response timing of effects that trigger upon a summoning. Im not a genius on these things, but I can't think of why this would not work.
 
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Okay, I don't want to sound like I don't trust anybody around here, because that's not the case. However, I did happen to have the ear of another L3 out in Vegas this weekend, so I through the scenario out to them for kicks. According to them, Last Will's effect is an optional effect that you can chain to. They had also mentioned something to the effect that you could activate it during Main Phase 1, tribute summon a monster, suicide another during the battle phase, and THEN decide to use its effect. I was checking some RONIN stuff again on it and the first ruling seems to indicate that its immediately activated the first chance it gets. So I guess I'm a little confused now on things. Can anybody help me process this more?
 
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Last Will definitely uses itself up on the first opportunity to activate, whether you use it or not. If you are going by the OCG rulings it is 1) non-chainable and 2) can't be used during the damage step, the last we had in TCG land 1) chainable and 2) works just like the elemental searchers (Mystic Tomato) in the damage step.

As obviously one of these things does not match the other (got to get that song out of my head) it would be great to get further information on what this wonderful card does.
 
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That sounds about right in the grand scheme of things. I even heard mention of the Elemental Searchers too. I'll have to pull up the rulings again and dig through things.
 
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I went round and round on the subject of Last Will trying to get answers for the very question you're talking about for 3 months.

According to Ein Estrin at UDE Last Will's effect MUST be used the first chance available or it's effect dissapears. That's not to say that he couldn't be wrong. I think I know the L3 you were speaking with (as he was the only one there) and he tends to have a pretty darn good grasp of the game most often. I'd love to hear his theory on why he thinks this way.

As far as Last Will's effect being a chainable one, of course you can chain to the activation of Last Will, weather you can chain to when it begins a new chain after the tribute summon I could see being in question. Last Will sets up a condition which is fufilled, obviously you can't chain to a conditon, however, we know that one can chain to an action. I'll do more reserch on the subject of Last Will's effect completion being chainable.

The following is Ein's response to my question, (posted with permission) the last paragraph he refers to the 4th paragraph is refering to the FAQ......

John,

You cannot choose when to activate the state based effect, as it will
trigger automatically the next time a monster is sent to the Graveyard.

Since Last Will is an optional effect, it's controller can choose to not
Special Summon a monster, but the state based effect will not reset.
Once it's condition has been met, that is the only chance you will have
that turn to Special Summon a monster.

The 4th paragraph is stating that the effect will expire at the end of
the turn if the condition of a monster being sent to the Graveyard was
not met during the turn.

Hope that clears things up,

Ian
 
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I will admit that I popped this question to him before things were starting and it could have been too many card names at once being thrown at him. I was trying to establish the scenario in question to avoid confusion. 8^D I don't want to put words in people's mouths, so I'll see if I can get some more clarification on the issue. Everything you're saying here makes sense and I think the more important question at this point would be whether or not you could chain BTH to get the first monster summoned or if you would only be able to go after the second one summoned.
 
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Just to point something out: Last Will does activate during the damage step. Which is why it makes such an insane combo with Newdoria. It is not chainable, as we know. Now, whether it interrupts the summon response opportunity, I would have to say yes. But I've ruled this wrong before, so maybe I'm wrong now.

-pssvr
 
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squid said:
*scribbles in notebook*
Activates...immediately..summon monster....BTH gets no response timing priority..

got it!

So, when a continuous effect like this has the ability to interrupt links in a chain activation/resolution sequence, it also has the ability to interrupt the response timing of effects that trigger upon a summoning. Im not a genius on these things, but I can't think of why this would not work.
Click to expand...
No Squid, the response timing still exists...Last Will is a Delayed Trigger NOT a Continuous Effect, if anything you could say it is State Based, but still a Trigger nonetheless.

Last Will will simily activate first, then BTH can be chained afterwards.
 
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