Tough questions: Infinite Loops and Negations

[Entropy]

(Let's see if I can make my own huge, 10-page thread! Mwahahaha.)

I've been thinking about these for a while now, and UDE won't return my calls. Maybe you guys can help me get a new prespective on things, or just bug UDE into giving us an answer.

1)
Player A has UFOroid equipped with Wicked-Breaking Flamberge - Baou and Machine Conversion Factory. (2000 ATK)

Player B has Terrorking Archfiend

Player A suicides UFOroid into Terrorking.

Now, would Baou negate Terrorking's effect, and allow UFOroid to go through?

The damage step chart says Terrorking negates effects from Substep 5 on.

If Terrorking's effect begins applying in Substep 5, would that make it trigger/activate/begin applying/come into existance at the beginning of, but still in substep 5? Or would it activate between steps like Disc Fighter (substep 3)?


2)
Player A has Jinzo equipped with Amplifier and Imperial Order.
Player B has Snatch Steal equipped to A's Jinzo and his own Imperial Order (currently negated by Jinzo).

Currently, everything is stable since A's Imperial Order is negating Snatch Steal. However, what happens when Player A runs low on Life Points, and cannot pay for Imperial Order? B's Snatch Steal activates, causing Jinzo to switch sides, and re-activating B's Imperial Order...negating Snatch Steal and returning it to A's side. An infinite loop.


3)
Player A has Jinzo equipped with Amplifier, his opponent's Jinzo, and Skill Drain.
Player B has Royal Decree, and possibly something else (See below)

Somehow, the non-Amplifiered Jinzo gets destroyed or removed from the field. For example, it attacks Player B's Wall of Illusion, rusts through Steel Scorpion, was Limiter Removal-ed without the Amplifier-ed Jinzo earlier in the turn, or suicides into Ryu Kokki. This leaves Jinzo + Amplifier, Skill Drain, and Royal Decree on the field. An infinite loop.


Since both of the infinite loops involve Jinzo + Amplifier, I think that one of them would be the "origin" of the loop.

If Jinzo leaves the field, then so does Amplifier. Since Amplifier would leave either way, would that make it the origin?


Have fun.

 

[masterwoo0]

(Let's see if I can make my own huge, 10-page thread! Mwahahaha.)

I've been thinking about these for a while now, and UDE won't return my calls. Maybe you guys can help me get a new prespective on things, or just bug UDE into giving us an answer.

1)
Player A has UFOroid equipped with Wicked-Breaking Flamberge - Baou and Machine Conversion Factory. (2000 ATK)

Player B has Terrorking Archfiend

Player A suicides UFOroid into Terrorking.

Now, would Baou negate Terrorking's effect, and allow UFOroid to go through?

The damage step chart says Terrorking negates effects from Substep 5 on.

If Terrorking's effect begins applying in Substep 5, would that make it trigger/activate/begin applying/come into existance at the beginning of, but still in substep 5? Or would it activate between steps like Disc Fighter (substep 3)?


2)
Player A has Jinzo equipped with Amplifier and Imperial Order.
Player B has Snatch Steal equipped to A's Jinzo and his own Imperial Order (currently negated by Jinzo).

Currently, everything is stable since A's Imperial Order is negating Snatch Steal. However, what happens when Player A runs low on Life Points, and cannot pay for Imperial Order? B's Snatch Steal activates, causing Jinzo to switch sides, and re-activating B's Imperial Order...negating Snatch Steal and returning it to A's side. An infinite loop.


3)
Player A has Jinzo equipped with Amplifier, his opponent's Jinzo, and Skill Drain.
Player B has Royal Decree, and possibly something else (See below)

Somehow, the non-Amplifiered Jinzo gets destroyed or removed from the field. For example, it attacks Player B's Wall of Illusion, rusts through Steel Scorpion, was Limiter Removal-ed without the Amplifier-ed Jinzo earlier in the turn, or suicides into Ryu Kokki. This leaves Jinzo + Amplifier, Skill Drain, and Royal Decree on the field. An infinite loop.


Since both of the infinite loops involve Jinzo + Amplifier, I think that one of them would be the "origin" of the loop.

If Jinzo leaves the field, then so does Amplifier. Since Amplifier would leave either way, would that make it the origin?


Have fun.

1. Since when does Wicked-breaking flamberge - baou target a monster other than the equipped monster?

2. I dont see any "Infinite Loop". Amplifier allows you to activate Trap Cards on your side of the field. Player A only controls Skill Drain. Skill Drain doesnt negate Jinzo's effect because Jinzo was on the field first, it just prevents any other Jinzo's summoned from negating Trap Cards.

Player B's Royal Decree is negated.

 

[Sakura Sakamoto]

2)
Player A has Jinzo equipped with Amplifier and Imperial Order.
Player B has Snatch Steal equipped to A's Jinzo and his own Imperial Order (currently negated by Jinzo).

Currently, everything is stable since A's Imperial Order is negating Snatch Steal. However, what happens when Player A runs low on Life Points, and cannot pay for Imperial Order? B's Snatch Steal activates, causing Jinzo to switch sides, and re-activating B's Imperial Order...negating Snatch Steal and returning it to A's side. An infinite loop.

in what order were the cards activated in?
if player a summoned jinzo which would negate player b's
imperial order.
then player a activated amplifier then activated imperial order
player a would make an instant infinate loop.
it would go like this since jinzo isn't negating imperial order.
imperial order's effect would then negate amplifier which in turn would make jinzo negate imperial order.
which reactivates amplifier which would stop jinzo effecting player a's trap cards which would activate imperial order starting the hole loop again.also the opponents imperial order wouldn't effect this
loop as it's constanly being negated by jinzo.

if player a summons jinzo equips with amplifier attacks then ends turn.
player 2 draws a card and activates snatch steal on jinzo in response player activates imperial order to negate snatch steal
but would also negate his amplifier.
meaning jinzo would negate the effect of imperial which would
activate the effect of snatch steal and amplifier at the same
time.
so jinzo would go to player 2 be would and stop negating player 2's imperial order which would than activate and negate
snatch steal and amplifier which send jinzo back to player 1.
so player 1' imperial would activate negateing amplifier and snatch steal but then jinzo would activate negating
imperial order activating the of snatch steal and amplifier
so jinzo would go back to player 2 and the loop would start all
over again.

3)
Player A has Jinzo equipped with Amplifier, his opponent's Jinzo, and Skill Drain.
Player B has Royal Decree, and possibly something else (See below)

Somehow, the non-Amplifiered Jinzo gets destroyed or removed from the field. For example, it attacks Player B's Wall of Illusion, rusts through Steel Scorpion, was Limiter Removal-ed without the Amplifier-ed Jinzo earlier in the turn, or suicides into Ryu Kokki. This leaves Jinzo + Amplifier, Skill Drain, and Royal Decree on the field. An infinite loop.

i've been thinking on this for little while and i think i have an answer this question so pay close attention.

player 1 sets skill drain and a monster and ends his turn.
player 2 sets royal decree and sets a monster.
player 1 thinks about what move to during player 1's main phase 1 player 2 activtes royal decree
player 1 chains with skill drain.
player 1 ends his turn. player 2 draws and summons jinzo negating skill drain and royal decree player 2 ends his turn.
player 1 draws and plays snatch steal on player 2's jinzo and activate limiter remover player 1 then tributes his spirit reaper to summon jinzo and equips it with amplifier player 1 attacks and ends his turn.
player 2's jinzo goes to the gravyard and thisis where the loop starts. The jinzo equped with amplifier negates player 2's royal decree activating skill drain negating jinzo's effect reactivating royal decree's effect negating skill drain's effect and so on.
if you look at all the different scenarios this one seems to work the best.

hope this helps.

 

[Kyhotae]

While explaining just how the infinite loop is helpful in establishing that there indeed is an infinite loop in these situations, it's not really the point. Activating any card that you know will create an infinite loop is illegal. If didn't know that an infinite loop will be created when an effect is activated, then play is rewound to the point before the loop-creating card in question was activated and play proceeds.

UDE/Konami has already answered this question, which is probably why they didn't answer yours. They covered infinite loops and how to handle them with the whole "Pole Position" thing. You're just using different cards to create your infinite loop.

So, if you know you're creating an infinite loop by activating a card, then you can't activate it at that time. If you unwittingly activate a card that creates an infinite loop, you screwed up and have to start over. If an infinite loop is created by game mechanics (ie. the drawing of a card or something else over which you have no choice in doing or not doing), then the card that is responsible for the infinite loop is destroyed.

 

[squid]

actually, the last ruling on Amplifier talks specifically about that situation

"¢ You cannot activate a card that would cause an infinite loop because its effect cannot resolve completely. Example #1: You activate "Snatch Steal" targeting your opponent's "Jinzo". You then equip "Jinzo" with "Amplifier". You cannot activate "Imperial Order" because it cannot resolve completely (it would negate "Snatch Steal", returning "Jinzo" to your opponent, which would negate "Imperial Order" so "Snatch Steal" would re-activate). If you activate "Imperial Order" by mistake in such a situation, flip it face-down again. Example #2: you control "Jinzo" equipped with "Amplifier" and "Skill Drain". Your opponent cannot activate "Royal Decree".

 

[Entropy]

Kyhotae, I'm relying on the logic presented in the Pole Position article:http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=5353#5353 The acticle says that...

...you cannot choose to Summon a monster, Set a monster, or Set or activate a Spell or Trap Card, or card effect, if it would cause an infinite loop.

So remember: you cannot choose to do anything that would create an infinite loop. If an infinite loop is thrust on you by things you had no control over, then you must destroy the offending card.

Based on his examples, it is completely legal to set up for an infinite loop, as long as it doesn't happen immediately. In the Pole Postition Example #5, all the plays were legal. It just led to an infinite loop when an another element was unavoidably added.

In (2) and (3), all the plays are legal. It creates no loops until another element is unavoidably added/removed. Much like the Pole Position examples where Pole Postition explodes.

 

[squid]

For #2, if you can't pay for IO and it begins a loop, I would simply say that IO's effect is not applied right then, and the loop ceases.

For #3, I would say that the last resolved effect to come into play, Amplifier or Skill Drain, would be automatically destroyed, so that the loop would end.

 

[Digital Jedi]

My turn! My turn!

1)
Player A has UFOroid equipped with Wicked-Breaking Flamberge - Baou and Machine Conversion Factory. (2000 ATK)

Player B has Terrorking Archfiend

Player A suicides UFOroid into Terrorking.

Now, would Baou negate Terrorking's effect, and allow UFOroid to go through?

The damage step chart says Terrorking negates effects from Substep 5 on.

If Terrorking's effect begins applying in Substep 5, would that make it trigger/activate/begin applying/come into existance at the beginning of, but still in substep 5? Or would it activate between steps like Disc Fighter (substep 3)?

That's tricky. To me it looks like two effects triggering at the same time. I would say your SEGOCing them in this case, and since yours would be placed on the chain first, then yours would be the last negation effect to resolve. Before UFO Turtle has a chance to activate. Baou would resolve last, but not do anything since Terrorking has alrady resolved. But then maybe I'm looking at the negation effects wrong. I've always presumed them were Trigger or Ignition-like Effects and not continuous.

2)
Player A has Jinzo equipped with Amplifier and Imperial Order.
Player B has Snatch Steal equipped to A's Jinzo and his own Imperial Order (currently negated by Jinzo).

Currently, everything is stable since A's Imperial Order is negating Snatch Steal. However, what happens when Player A runs low on Life Points, and cannot pay for Imperial Order? B's Snatch Steal activates, causing Jinzo to switch sides, and re-activating B's Imperial Order...negating Snatch Steal and returning it to A's side. An infinite loop.

For #2, if you can't pay for IO and it begins a loop, I would simply say that IO's effect is not applied right then, and the loop ceases.

Er, huh? I'm not sure I understand. How could you choose not to stop negating Spells?

3)
Player A has Jinzo equipped with Amplifier, his opponent's Jinzo, and Skill Drain.
Player B has Royal Decree, and possibly something else (See below)

Somehow, the non-Amplifiered Jinzo gets destroyed or removed from the field. For example, it attacks Player B's Wall of Illusion, rusts through Steel Scorpion, was Limiter Removal-ed without the Amplifier-ed Jinzo earlier in the turn, or suicides into Ryu Kokki. This leaves Jinzo + Amplifier, Skill Drain, and Royal Decree on the field. An infinite loop.

Depending on which order the modifiers came into play, then whichever was playted last would be destroyed. That would be my guess on both scenarios.

 

[squid]

you know what, I wasnt reading close enough to notice that only one player's IO was not being paid for. Sloppy reading. =/

I guess it would be appropriate to change my answer to being similar to my answer for #3: whichever effect was the last to resolve onto the field (IO or Snatch Steal or Amplifier) would be the one to be destroyed.

*sigh*

Basically, by this point Im just tagging along with DJ. Must really try to focus on reading before responding.

 

[skey23]

Btw...the effect of "Terrorking Archfiend" is a continuous effect, as well as the effect of "Wicked Flamberge" that negates monster effects, so neither will use the chain.

 

[Entropy]

My turn! My turn!

Alright! Someone else is having fun with this!

[first question]
That's tricky. To me it looks like two effects triggering at the same time. I would say your SEGOCing them in this case, and since yours would be placed on the chain first, then yours would be the last negation effect to resolve. Before UFO Turtle has a chance to activate. Baou would resolve last, but not do anything since Terrorking has alrady resolved. But then maybe I'm looking at the negation effects wrong. I've always presumed them were Trigger or Ignition-like Effects and not continuous.

They might not be continuous, but they might work that way....
(Must...find...flaw...in...logic....)

(second/third questions)
Depending on which order the modifiers came into play, then whichever was playted last would be destroyed. That would be my guess on both scenarios.

Does Pole Postition care which card was played last?

And, I just came up with a new confusing question.

Player A has Scarr, Scout of Dark World equipped with Megamorph, and two Axe of Despair's, and a nameless monster that can be tributed.
Player B has a face-down Ancient Lamp.

Player A activates Pyramid Energy's first effect (Scarr: 2450 ATK) and then tributes the nameless monster for Dark Ruler Ha Des.

Scarr attacks Ancient Lamp, which is reflected back at Ha Des. They kill each other.

Now, would Ha Des' (used via Scar)effect negate Ha Des, causing Scarr's effect to activate? Or would Ha Des just negate Scarr? And what if Dark Ruler initiated the attack? Would Baou being equipped to one monster make a difference?

If anyone needs me, I'll be laughing maniacally.

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

Both Baou and Terrorking's effect were active when the monsters were declared destroyed.

So both Terroking's and UFO turtle's effect will be negated. (note the future tense)

Remember a monster's continuous effect turns off once the monster has been destroyed (past tense)

So if you ignore Baou for a moment, and have UFO turtle under the effects of Reinforcements instead, terroking's effect ceases before UFO turtle is destroyed, yet, UFO turtle would still be negated.

Terrorking's and baou's effect are analyzed when the monster is being destroyed, but effects aren't negated until the monster has been destroyed. Therefore there is no "conflicting" effects in this scenario.