ultimate baseball kid's effect

[StRiKe_NiNjA]

I was in a duel today, and my opponent had a face down Torrential Tribute, (i knew due to it being picked up through a cyber jar effect) and i didn't want to set it off or trigger it. so i thought i could Set a monster (fire attribute, UFO Turtle) then send it to the graveyard to inflict 500 points of damage to finish off my opponent using Ultimate Baseball Kid's effect, but he said i can't do that that, do to that I can't determine what attribute it is due to it being face down, like Smashing Ground can't destroy face down becuz it can't determine the DEF point on a face down card.

I agreed but lost the duel. I checked out Card Registry and it was true, the ruling was right there. My question is, how come you can send face-down DEF position Beast, Winged-Beast, or Beast-Warrior to the graveyard using Manticore's effect to Special Summon it, but you can't send face-down DEF Fire attribute monster through Ultimate Baseball Kid's effect to inflict 500 points of damage?

One more question, do I send the FIRE attribute monster to activate the effect of Ultimate Baseball Kid, or is it like The Creator and the effect of sending a monster to the graveyard just part of the effect?

 

[densetsu_x]

I'll answer the second part since it's the easier of the 2.

Sending the FIRE type to the graveyard is the cost to activate the effect.

As for the first part you mention... considering they use the EXACT same wording for both effects, but say 1 is allowable and the other isn't... I have no idea. Probably should ask the mailing list in the morning.

 

[novastar]

There are only two possibilities

1.) One of the two rulings is incorrect
2.) Manticore's effect is slightly different than UBK's

My "guess" is that Manticore's ruling is slightly incorrect, it is NOT a cost effect, it is an optional trigger, based on Manticore being sent to the graveyard, similar to Necrofear. And we all know triggers never have costs. The Type for Manticore's effect would be checked on resolution, so it doesn't matter what Type of monster you send, and you don't need a face-up.

Because UBK's effect is a true cost effect you must know the Attribute prior to even activating it, to pay the cost, or you simply cannot activate. And you can only truly "know" the Attribute when the card is face-up.

The "should" be the logical answer based on what i see in text of the effects, but of course i don't expect this to be logical.

 

[spotsknight]

Novastar,

The logic is sound as far as it not being a cost but I'm not positive if that is the reason or not because you can't send a monter that is not the correct type and let the effect fail.

This might be one of those BKSS (Because Konami Says So).

Spot's Knight

 

[krazykidpsx]

its kinda like tributing a facedown monster for the use of metamorphosis, i dont know why its allowed, and i also dont have a clue how it works, since we know that facedown cards are just that, facedown with nothing on the bottom.

no attribute, no type, no atk, no defense, no effect (scept for big shield gardna), no image, no nothing.

since its kinda similar to the whole face down thing, could somebody explain to me how it works.

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

its kinda like tributing a facedown monster for the use of metamorphosis, i dont know why its allowed, and i also dont have a clue how it works, since we know that facedown cards are just that, facedown with nothing on the bottom.

no attribute, no type, no atk, no defense, no effect (scept for big shield gardna), no image, no nothing.

since its kinda similar to the whole face down thing, could somebody explain to me how it works.

Some cards just break the rules. Cyber Jar and Fiber Jar for example include themselves in their effects. This game was created by a Person who has ideas of what the individual cards should do, much more than about the game rules themselves.

 

[novastar]

Novastar,

The logic is sound as far as it not being a cost but I'm not positive if that is the reason or not because you can't send a monter that is not the correct type and let the effect fail.

This might be one of those BKSS (Because Konami Says So).

Spot's Knight

And i thought about this as i was writing it.

Spots, I think we both (being in understanding of mechanics) understand that something weird is going on with Manticore. At least you see where i'm coming from.

It should not be a "cost" but in order to avoid allowing someone to tribute the wrong Type they make it a cost. You should theoretically be allowed to tribute any monster with Manticore's effect.

In the end "Konami said so..." UBK the monster must be face-up, Manticore the monster can be face-down.

Thats just the way it is...

 

[novastar]

its kinda like tributing a facedown monster for the use of metamorphosis, i dont know why its allowed, and i also dont have a clue how it works, since we know that facedown cards are just that, facedown with nothing on the bottom.

no attribute, no type, no atk, no defense, no effect (scept for big shield gardna), no image, no nothing.

since its kinda similar to the whole face down thing, could somebody explain to me how it works.

Metamorphosis does not break the rules. A face-down monster is still considered "a monster" this is similar to Catapult Turtle, and you can tribute a face-down monster with that effect as well. The ATK would be checked on resolution.

The star level is checked by Meta when it resolves and only requires "a monster" when you tribute. So if the monster does not fit the requirement when it resolves, the effect will resolve without effect or misfire.

That is why you can tribute a face-down.

"Offer 1 monster on your side of the field as a Tribute"

That is the cost

"to Special Summon 1 Fusion Monster of the same Level in face-up Attack or Defense Position from your Fusion Deck."

That is the effect

Hope that helps