What would be an appropriate penalty?

[John Danker]

If a player accused a judge of being bias, what would you say would be an appropriate penalty?

I heard this recently (I wasn't the judge but know the gentleman who was and his reputation is spotless) I was pretty hot myself over the matter. I've checked into the policy documents and it doesn't state anything about that paticular instance. The closest thing I can find is...

Unsporting Conduct-Major (Penalty: Match Loss)

*A player uses profanity to argue with the official head judge about a ruling.

 

[skey23]

I don't think it warrants a Match Loss unless the player is being truly degrading about it. I would start off with a Warning, and then upgrade from there if the accusations continued.

 

[John Danker]

Remember that this would be a case of accusing the judge of cheating. If a judge indeed were biased and it was proven then what would be the penalty to the judge by UDE? He / She would be dropped from the judge program no doubt.

Perhaps I'm a bit strict when it comes to this type of thing. I'm used to a sport where the only way you address a judge is, "Yes Sir / Ma'am....No Sir / Ma'am" Arguing with a judge in that same sport or unsporting conduct will get a player a 2 year suspension.

 

[Jason_C]

I'm used to a sport where the only way you address a judge is, "Yes Sir / Ma'am....No Sir / Ma'am"

Perhaps it's because I practice the same, but I don't think a player has any right to accuse a judge of cheating even if they ARE cheating.

I'm certainly not a judge, but it would be my opinion that any type of accusation a player makes regarding a judge's integrity should result in a warning, and if that player does not improve their behavior IMMEDIATELY, they should be removed from that tournament. Quite simply, the judges don't have the time to deal with troublemakers like that. If there's an issue with a judge, it can be worked out afterwards. Not while there are other competitors who need rulings help and more rounds to run.

 

[skey23]

Well, see, you didn't make that clear enough in your initial post. Was this the Head Judge, or a Floor Judge?

 

[magnumcyclonex]

Judges are human beings. It is possible for anyone, regardless of their position to make mistakes. However, whenever one enters the judge program, he/she has to comply with the rules and regulations of that program and be able to conduct in an appropriate manner. If that cannot be done, then he/she is out for good. It would take a lot for that individual to be allowed back to judge future events.

A player should be able to bring up his/her case to the judge, head judge and T.O. but not to the extent where his/her comments become rude, insulting or a distraction from the event itself. The issue is obviously great enough to warrant said parties' attention, but it must be handled separately. The parties involved should be pulled aside to deal with the situation while the event continues. Statements regarding the situation should be made and if the player wishes, he/she should contact UDE about the matter.

 

[John Danker]

Well, see, you didn't make that clear enough in your initial post. Was this the Head Judge, or a Floor Judge?

It was both, it was a local event, the head judge was the only judge. It shouldn't matter weather it was a floor judge or head judge that was accused IMO though.

The accuser didn't just say it calmly either, he shouted it causing disruption.

I think an appropriate action would be to report such suspisions to the T.O.

 

[skey23]

Yes, it does make a difference. It makes a difference on what avenues the player has to deal with the situation.

If it's a Floor Judge, the player can voice their concerns to the Head Judge, who should handle the situation accordingly.

If the Floor Judge is found to be biased towards a player, then I'm afraid that Judge should be asked to leave the event and should probably not be allowed to Judge again. The game state should be repaired as much as possible. The player(s) should be apologized to. If that player was beligerant about the issue, then penalties should be given accordingly.

If the Judge is found to be in the right, then the player(s) should be talked to and be given explanations at to the rulings he/she was given, and given the appropriate penalty for disrupting the game, whether that be a Warning or Game Loss depending on the disruption. If the player was overly beligerant towards the Judge and/or Head Judge, then I can see a Match Loss or DQ being valid.

If the Judge in question IS the Head Judge, then the player is limited on what they can do. Unfortunately, arguing with the Head Judge is not very smart and can quickly end up with a Match Loss or DQ, depending on the situation. The player's only option is to contact UDE about the incident and see if UDE will look into the Judge's conduct.

Without knowing anything about the event, or the Judge in question, I'll say this. Unfortunately, I'm hearing more and more cases of 'bad judging' at local events where the one and only Judge is 'fixing' rulings and games in favor of his teammates or friends. In this setting, the only recourse the players have is to email UDE about what's going on. I am, by no means, saying anything bad about this Judge, or this tournament. You know the Judge, and say his reputation is spotless, so it sounds like it was just an upset player venting his frustrations.

 

[John Danker]

What I meant by it shouldn't matter who was accused, I meant not the options afterward but the severity of the problem. Obviously the chain of command should always be adhired to when dealing with such issues.

 

[skey23]

What I meant by it shouldn't matter who was accused, I meant not the options afterward but the severity of the problem. Obviously the chain of command should always be adhired to when dealing with such issues.

Ok, but simply accusing shouldn't automatically be a Match Loss, IMHO. You have to take into account the player's actions, his mannerisms, his language. You have to take into account (if possible) the Judge's actions, mannerisms and language as well.

Yes, being a Judge automatically puts us in a position where we're expected to act a certain way, but that doesn't make us any better than the players, and we should never forget that.

 

[Evil Fiber Jar]

When I went though the policies, it really didn't cover this situation but it was like an inbetween pentalties. between warning and match loss.

 

[John Danker]

Ok, but simply accusing shouldn't automatically be a Match Loss, IMHO. You have to take into account the player's actions, his mannerisms, his language. You have to take into account (if possible) the Judge's actions, mannerisms and language as well.

Yes, being a Judge automatically puts us in a position where we're expected to act a certain way, but that doesn't make us any better than the players, and we should never forget that.

Not any better than players of course not....but we're held to a higher degree of accountablity and I feel should be treated with a higher degree of respect because of that accountability. We're expected to be fair, we're expected to be unbiased, we're expected to do our jobs well....I don't think it's out of line that judges should expect a degree of respect for those services and to be treated and addressed in an appropriate manner for the same.....yeah, I know, I'm old school <shrug> I expect a lot from people and I give the same.

 

[Jason_C]

Not any better than players of course not....but we're held to a higher degree of accountablity and I feel should be treated with a higher degree of respect because of that accountability. We're expected to be fair, we're expected to be unbiased, we're expected to do our jobs well....I don't think it's out of line that judges should expect a degree of respect for those services and to be treated and addressed in an appropriate manner for the same.....yeah, I know, I'm old school <shrug> I expect a lot from people and I give the same.

I think it to some extent depends on how you define "accusing". When I read your initial post, I pictured someone with their finger pointing at the judge, screaming out "You are being completely unfair and biased!". This is, of course, not only disrespectful to the judge's status, it is also disrespectful to any human being and violates the most basic rule of manners: Always assume whenever possible that there has been a misunderstanding or YOU are missing something before assuming it was someone else's fault.

I think perhaps Mr. Key is envisioning it more as a matter of a formal complaint. If the person respectfully suggested a possible bias rather than what I had described, I don't think any penalty at all could justly be administered for that. After all, who's to say the judge wasn't biased? Of course I trust your judgment, and if you say he's not, then he's not. But I don't think we can judge that the player should have known that. If his attitude was respectful, the player should be given the benefit of the doubt and we should assume that he had some logical reason for suspecting the judge of bias, just as we should assume that there was more likely a misunderstanding or error than actual bias involved.

 

[blade146]

This is something UDE should think about more. They currently do not have a system that punishes judges for doing wrong. I'm not saying the judge was at fault here. There are some instances that the judge is at fault.

I had one come up about a month ago and wasn't sure how to handle it. I was not in the match but a friend of mine was. A player ask a question along the lines of can I do this. The judge said that he could. The probem wasn't with the play it was legal. The problem was that the judge gave the player advice. Now my friend is at a slight disadvantage because his opponent recieved help outside of the match. I did aproach the judge after the match was over but he blew me off.

 

[John Danker]

I believe the exact words were...and in a loud voice, "That's the most biased thing I've ever SEEN! <with a rolling eye action>

blade146, if one of your fellow judges, or if you're the head judge and a judge "blows you off" after such an incident you can e-mail judge@upperdeck.com and report the incident which I believe would be an appropriate course of action if he repeats it. He may have been embarrased enough that he "appeared" to blow it off but heeded every word you said.

 

[Jason_C]

I believe the exact words were...and in a loud voice, "That's the most biased thing I've ever SEEN! <with a rolling eye action>

Interesting.

It is interesting because, by being too quick to assume that the judge was at fault and not him, and by making his accusation both somewhat exaggerated and extremely personal, the player not only puts himself in a position where he risks punishment, he also virtually eliminates any hope he may have of getting a "fair trial" and having his viewpoint considered.

I can say, from personal experience, that the most important thing I've learned from the time I've spent on these forums has nothing to do with Yu-Gi-Oh, but rather is about making one's self heard. What I learned is this: Whether you are right or wrong, nobody will listen to you if you can't say what you have to say without insulting someone. So, by insulting the judge directly, the player caused the judge to heed his point less. Had the complaint been worded differently, the judge MAY have reconsidered his ruling. But it was not.

</philosopher speech>

 

[skey23]

I believe the exact words were...and in a loud voice, "That's the most biased thing I've ever SEEN! <with a rolling eye action>

Well, my first instict would be to verify the call being made was indeed the correct call, but in the situation you're describing, I'm guessing that would be kind of difficult to do. But, depending on what's available to the Judge, I would have at least tried to 'back up' whatever ruling was being questioned with RONIN or something, if possible.

 

[John Danker]

The actual situation was this...

Player 1 has attacked and player 2 has no response. Damage calculation is entered....both players calculate damage and write down the damage on their paper....then player 1 decides that he wants to activate Rush Recklessly. The judge is called over and rules that since both players have tallied the score and have written it down the time to activate S/T cards that directly effect the ATK/ Def. of monsters has expired. Player 1's brother standing behind him looking on made the comment about being "The most biased thing I've ever seen!" Player 1's brother is also in the tournament but was finished with his match already.

Perhaps the most upsetting and sorry part of the story is that this same gentleman who made the accusations knows all too well the reputation, sacrafice, and character of the judge involved and makes the accusation regardless.

 

[ygo doc]

This was obviously a biased comment by a relative who is a poor sportsman, but wanting to support his brother.

I can understand a judge becoming upset at such a comment, but if that same judge is mature and firmly rooted in his integrity, I do not feel he/she should feel personally embarrassed by such a comment. It has absolutely no merit.

I probably would have responded by first asking the bystander to repeat his statement, or ask him why he felt the judgment was biased. This situation is clearly a player management situation and not a rulings question.

If the bystander and/or player continued to complain of judging bias or unfairness, I would
1) Inform the person it is OK to disagree with the ruling or judgment. (In player management situations, almost always one person will disagree with the judgment)
2) As Head judge, the ruling is final and cannot be appealed.
3) Be forewarned how you complain. You may bring this up with the tournament organizer. If you complain in a manner to insult my integrity as a judge, I will consider that poor sportsmanship. Consider this a warning. If you wish to further insult judges or players, I will upgrade your penalty accordingly which can include Disqualification without prize and removal from the premises.

I as judge would distinguish what is a disagreement with a ruling vs. an insult to a player or judge. I do feel the comment crossed the line to where it was insulting the integrity of the judge involved.

doc

 

[John Danker]

This was obviously a biased comment by a relative who is a poor sportsman, but wanting to support his brother.

Yes obviously, and one done without thought to possible ramifications.

3) Be forewarned how you complain. You may bring this up with the tournament organizer. If you complain in a manner to insult my integrity as a judge, I will consider that poor sportsmanship. Consider this a warning. If you wish to further insult judges or players, I will upgrade your penalty accordingly which can include Disqualification without prize and removal from the premises.

I as judge would distinguish what is a disagreement with a ruling vs. an insult to a player or judge. I do feel the comment crossed the line to where it was insulting the integrity of the judge involved.

doc

I think a lot of people are missing what I'm after in my original post. As doc stated, it's obvious this is a player management issue and not a "ruling"...however, it should not go without being addressed. As stated in my origial post I was after what people thought would be an appropriate course of action. doc's statement above in #3 is what I would consider to be a fair, calm penalty and statement with proper explination as to the possible future ramifications.

This was just a very interesting scenario to me because I'd never heard a judge be accused of cheating (while judging) before and hadn't considered what would be an appropriate course of action. It would be an easy thing to do to over react (I must say I did even though I wasn't judging) I can't help but wonder how I would have reacted if I were the one judging and being accused. I seem to always be much more level headed when I'm judging (as I know it's expected and necessary) than when I'm in another role. This thread was basically food for thought for judges about a possible future scenario and your response.

On the other side of the coin reasoning the statement I found in the policy documents...

Unsporting Conduct-Major (Penalty: Match Loss)

*A player uses profanity to argue with the official head judge about a ruling.

Is using profantity while arguing with a head judge about a ruling any less of an offense than accusing them of being biased? .....again, just food for thought.