What's a Better Cyber Lasser Dragon or Cyber Barrior Dragon??

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masterwoo0 said:
Who has Cyber Phoenix?? Are we playing GBA or for real cards?
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They are not in GBA. I mean real cards. Since they are not out in the TCG I used them in the OCG with my friends who used OCG cards until I stopped dueling recently. But yes, it worked splendly. I am not saying I won all the time, but I was able to win a good deal.
 
Need we border on dissension every day? I'm speaking to all.

Look guys, this subject is one we've discussed here before. The CC players verses the Original Deck Builders. Yes, I qualify you in the class of CC if you just so "happen" to think of a deck that's built like everyone else's. That's not really of a case "great minds thinking alike". That's a case of there being a much more obvious and easier road to victory and everyone spotting it.

The argument is made that "I like to win" or "winning is fun" quite often around the Yu-Gi community. No one questions this. But let's look at the facts here for a moment.

Are people really playing these cards because they are the most fun cards in the game? Or are they playing them because they are the easiest and most obvious route to victory? In my experience, people will more often take that route if they can then take a less obvious one. Especially if that route takes considerably less work.

If steroids weren't ethically, morally and legally wrong, and hadn't been for generations, how many more atheletes do you think would partake of them in spite of the obvious health risks? I'm not drawing this comparisons to say that CCing it is as easy a shortcut as taking steroids, but I am saying that an easier road is often the one most traveled. The one most desired


For me, it's not a matter of if I've personally tried it. It's a matter of if anyone has tried it. Ever. And really put it to the test with a little elbow grease. Many of the decks I've built over the years were fun me because they where original, but they also worked. But they didn't work the first time or the second or the hundredth. They took a great deal of work to make work. And I was twelve times more proud of my victories then I ever would have been running BLS or CED or whatever the popular staple of the time was.

In short, the route to victory most taken will inevitably be the route with less difficulty. It doesnt mean that the less taken routes are any less viable or wont produce as many victories. It means that victory will come at a price. It will come from trial and error and quite possibly humiliation and being laughed at. Which is what makes making the final product actually work that much sweeter.
 
If you did not want to draw a comparission between steroids and CCing then why did you bother to use it as an example? As I been saying, people want to win at all costs and taking the easy road to victory is the way most will go. Nevermind that a lot of Decks can gain victories with enough trial and error and practice. That is why when I win my duels with Water Dragon it gives me a sense of accomplishment and a slap to the face of the people I duel against that are dumbstruck in how they lost to such a "garbage" monster.
 
Huh? I most certainly wanted to draw comparisons to using steroids and CCing. What I said is that in a moral sence they are not the same thing. Steriods are illegal and dangerous, CCing is not. What I pointed out is that they are both easier and/or faster roads to achiving a goal. And that if taking steroids didn't have the impliations it had, that it would no doubt be a common sight amoungst them.
 
What you call cookie cutting, I dont. I didnt even start looking at other peoples decks until recently, and only because I got tired of people asking me to look at their decks because I am a Judge, so other than Deck Checks at Tournaments, I could actually care less about someone else's strategy or Deckbuilding. I put what I like in a Deck, not what EVERYONE likes, because I dont play their decks and they dont play mine.

If everyone like Mataza the Zapper, so what. I like it because I like it, and if I put it in my deck because I like the fact that he attacks twice, then that's what I put it in there for.

Someone else may have him in there because he's a Dark, LV3, under 1500 attack, so he can skirt Gravity Bind as well as Messenger of Peace, and escape Bottomless Trap Hole. Some people use Spirit Reaper because he cant be destroyed in Battle and could care less that he has a discard effect.

So evey deck isnt cookie cutter because it looks like another deck. The way you use the cards in your deck arent always going to be the same. I dont build cookie cutter decks for the sake of making a deck like someone else. I make what works for me. If the fact that our card pool draws certain cards out into decks, is a bad thing, then I didnt create that, the game did.

So if ten people are using D.D. Assailant in their decks, I should not because it makes my deck a cookie cutter?

You start building a deck with one card, gentlemen. That's how I do it at least.
 
One card is fine. Even three or four. You cross a line though where its no longer coincedence. As I said, the route most taken isn't neccessarily because everyone is copying each other, it's because it's the most obvious route.

I run Spirit Reaper in almost every deck I build. Preferences are not a part of what I'm speaking of. I;'m speaking of goiung in a direction and strategy that gets seen over and over again.

And I'm also pointing to the fact, that a seemingly usless card cannot be determined to be useless untill a ceratin amount of time amnd effort is put into it. If no one's tried it, and no one wants to try it, then in my mind a lable as "garbge" is as arbitrary as the notion that earth was once flat. It takes exploration to prove a theory true. It takes effort to reach the horizon.
 
Does it take 9 times losing at a Event to tell you that a card is basically garbage if it doesnt even work once?

Retooling it may help, but chances are, you played a variety of decks and couldnt even beat one. And if you did, chalk it up as a fluke, because you cant count it as a success.

Anyone who has played this game for at least 2 years should be able to perform a virtual deck build in their mind, maybe not all 40 cards, but you should be able to virtually "see" whether a Deck can compete. People did that with Dark World. Did it happen?

No. But plenty people swore by it, that Dark World would own, and so far, its only been a few cards that are representing well. You can't tell me that there arent some great deckbuilders out there. Why hasnt someone made it work yet?

So those of us who say Cyber Laser Dragon and Cyber Barrier Dragon are garbage, should our opinion be discounted just like when people said Dark World wouldnt be the next Chaos, or should we wait until the next ban list comes out to make it easier for both decks to compete?

Eventually, things will be watered down enough to make a breakthrough. But why experiment for the sake of experimenting, if you are happy with what you have already? I'm not one of those people who is going to go out and make a thousand decks every time a new set comes out. I probably have 2, maybe 3 decks that I play, and out of those three, only one that I play consistently, and it is my Original Deck from when I started playing minus the cards that have either been Banned, Limited, or Restricted, so I know I am not playing a Cookie Cutter because it's basically a 3 year old Deck that's only been updated. That's like saying if I have a Chevrolet, and keep putting new part's on it over the years, I can turn it into a BMW.
 
Nine times? I've played a dack with supposed garbage cards 100 times. More. I spent 2 years on a single deck build trying to make it work and adjusting it to the respective metas, always with the core cards staying in. There are pleanty of great deck builders out there. There are few with the kind of patience it takes to make it work. How many cards are there in the Yu-Gi-Oh! TCG? DO you really think 9 tries, or even 100 tries is really going to be enough to find the hidden gems and strategies? Did they launch a rocket towrds the moon nine times and then give up because it obviously wasn't going to get there? It takes hard work to find the less obvious. But that doesn't mean the less obvious isn't there or isn't worth finding.
 
So, unlike most people who really would like to win sometime in the near future, and dont have the resources to build mega-decks, it's kind of hard not to gravitate to what you can afford or what you can trade for.

Some people really want to experience the winning part of Yugioh. Not everyone can be a "Mad Scientist", spending months and years in a Deck Lab. Those are the people you are forgetting about.

Some people are already behind the 8-ball when they start playing, so its unfair to say that if they try to grab the best that's available, they are Cookie Cutters. If they don't, before the reprints came out, what were their choices? Get beat by superior Decks, over an over.

Unless you like getting beat just because you are "testing" a deck, not everyone IS testing with you. Some people are playing the best that they have, and LOSING. That person doesnt have anything anyone needs or wants, but cant afford to update or upgrade. Where do they go? They quit or continue to be fodder for Deck Testers who dont care if they lose because its part of the "Grand Scheme" of things, so what does that say about your opinion of the person you are playing?

"I dont care if you beat me, because this isnt my best deck anyway..."

"Come back in 2 years or 100 batles, or whichever comes first."

Bring what you think is your best to offer, regardless of whether it wins or not. I NEVER want to hear the excuse, "I'm sitll working on my Deck" from a losing player. If you won, you expected to win. If you lose, you got BEAT. Your deck didnt work. Dont insult the person who beat you by minimizing their victory.

You came to play. They came to play. Hopefully you both brought your "A Game". If not, at least say you dont expect to win before the Match starts because you just want to try out something. That way, your opponent at least has an idea you are more playtesting than "playing", and wont feel insulted by the "Not finished" comment.
 
In order for the Deck to work you have to play test it. You just do not make a Deck and there you go automatic winner. In order to even get a CC tourney winning Deck you need to spend mad amount of money to begin with so I honestly do not see your point in mentioning how easier it is to not spend money on mega research Decks and just for the easier road to victory. Again, you refuse to put the effort and dedication into your Deck. You do not want to "lose" so you decide that above all else winning is the key. I usually have a debate back and forth with my friend in Texas named Swiftblackninjaman or whatever he is calling himself online. We go back and forth on our duel philosophies every now and then. I always wondered how a player would act if they lost, even knowing they had their A-game and CC Deck up to snuff. People lose. Losing is a part of life, a part of the game, and a part of growing up as a duelist and developing what works and what does not work.

You think one day I woke up and said "Gee golly I want to make a Water Dragon Deck"? When I first saw it on Japanese TV in episode 13 when Misawa summoned it and it had that situational effect against FIRE Decks I knew it was the card that perfectly matched my duel style and philosophy. Hard work and dedication, careful planning and experimenting in order to achieve your goal in the duel. That was the card that kept me interested in this game. Now for as long as I can remember I have always been deep in researching various cards, strategies, combinations in order to use to maximize Water Dragon. Has it lost? All Deck testing will have their loss. You will probably lose more than win while still testing what is still a Deck Test until you finally perfect it. But even then no Deck is perfect and will eventually be beat or simply out classed by another Deck. Just like how Chaos fears Gravekeeper and Warriors trash the Dragons.
 
What part about, "Not everyone has the resources to buy everything they need to make a deck" did you not understand??

Everyone playing this game does not have a big budget, nor huge trade stock.
 
LOL. One of the reason it deos take me so long to work on my decks is because I don't have access to a huge card pool. I can't afford to by large amonts of cards and I don't have that many. I look up card effects in the registry and test out things in YVD.

But ironically the thing that partially forced me to see that playing the same deck over and over again was the fact that I couldn't get all the latest and greatest cards. When I started this game I was just married, had just lost my job and was behind on every bill you could imagine. I built a card pool from what I could manage and in my spare time I would refine what I had. I learned that you never truley learn the ins and outs of a deck until you've reall put though the mill. The majority of players I personaly play, take their deck apart after a single lost duel, because they think it doesn't work.

Now, Woo0, do you really expect every person you encounter to be playing with a deck that sin't untested? And since when is testing a deck not really playing with a deck? I play a new deck with the intention of winning. Other wise whats the point of testing it? What, did you think that trial and error means that you attempts are lacluster until you get something that wins? Every match is a test not only of new deck but of ability to stratergize.

You seriously don't think that aplayer should only bring th tried and true to play against you should he? So what if makes excusses? That's part of playing a game that is "customizable".
 
Digital Jedi said:
Now, Woo0, do you really expect every person you encounter to be playing with a deck that sin't untested? And since when is testing a deck not really playing with a deck? I play a new deck with the intention of winning. Other wise whats the point of testing it? What, did you think that trial and error means that you attempts are lacluster until you get something that wins? Every match is a test not only of new deck but of ability to stratergize.

You seriously don't think that aplayer should only bring th tried and true to play against you should he? So what if makes excusses? That's part of playing a game that is "customizable".
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Im talking mainly regionals and above. Heck, I'd bring a Starter Deck to a local tourney if I thought I'd have more fun with it, but at a Regional, are you still testing your deck?

Would you go out and grab a College Freshman Quarterback to play in the Superbowl (lets be realistice with your answer!!!)?
 
Apparently many people view the casual weekly tournament a little too much like a Nascar event.

With the qualifier that I rarely enter the tournament to begin with. I'm often there at the time of the tournament. I'm often playing with some off the wall deck idea to see how it plays out against different styles and decks. And yes I have had a select few players who the first time they dueled me acted like they had just won an olympic medal when they beat me (especially if they were running something like Mill against a deck that I hadn't at all prepped for going up against OTK decks). I just smile and let them gloat. And the next game they were available I haul out a well built anti-pony that whips them so badly their friends are laughing at them all the way out of the store.

Comments about cards being useless typically push me to create decks for those cards, even when I had other things that were more interesting to me that I wasn't finished with. "Not splashable" is fine to describe a card like Cyber Laser, "useless" is not.

Not everyone is bringing the same deck that they started with just trying week by week to make it strong enough to be the best. Many are experimenting to find the next great deck, and some of us are experimenting just because we enjoy using the cards. When you have 3 of nearly every card in the game it would be truly insane to stick to 50 or so of those cards wouldn't it?
 
Dont take this the wrong way. I've played cards that arent mainstream before. I've even introduced cards into a Meta that was lacking them previously, or people were not wanting to play them because they were "expensive".

My old meta, People had cards like TP3 Needle Worms, TP2 Morphing Jars, TP4 Royal Decrees, and on and on... But never used them.

Then, when I used mine for the first time, it was like, "Wow, those cards have that much potential and I dont use them???"

Next thing I know, everyone that has them breaks them out, and I retire mine for the sake of originality lost. I brought Anti-Spell Fragrance, Windstorm of Etaqua, Spell Shield Type-8, Gravekeeper's Servant, Giant Trunade, and a host of other cards into a Meta that was starving for change, so I am not one who likes to be "similar", I mean, I've had Cyber Dragon's every since CRV came out, and just decided to put them in my Deck, I have yet to use any of my Enemy Controller's, but I am partial to using Snatch Steal, as I am sure most are.

I am not going to say that my decks are Elite, mostly because I resist mainstream cards until "I" find them useful. But, I understand everyone's argument for Cyber Laser Dragon and Cyber Barrier Dragon. I'm just saying that they are not something that I personally will ever play with because I dont find them interesting enough to want to go in that direction. Does it make them garbage? I'll concede that it does not, on the premise that they are still garbage only to me.
 
masterwoo0 said:
Im talking mainly regionals and above. Heck, I'd bring a Starter Deck to a local tourney if I thought I'd have more fun with it, but at a Regional, are you still testing your deck?

Would you go out and grab a College Freshman Quarterback to play in the Superbowl (lets be realistice with your answer!!!)?
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Yes. Where else can I play all the major deck types of a given meta repeatedly for an entire day without stopping? I hate footbal.
 
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