why all the moaning....

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cuzwbd

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bumbling around on another ygo forum... and MAN what a bunch of whiners...demise this... demise = stein... blah blah ruin the game blah blah....
i do not get it ...this format has had the most variety of winning decks i can remember...am i wrong there?
and demise is a fragile win condition at best.... very easy to side deck against
most popular decks seem to have the ability to make a big swing right? effectively making a otk.....
ddt>dimension fusion for game
bazooper> rfdd for game
6 samurai>grandmaster>shogun for +4k lp =gg
when a monarch deck starts tributing monarchs for monarchs to end in 2 or 3 turns
future>overload for game
burn decks wiping 1/2 of lp in one turn....
gadget>ultimate offering for game
machines>heavy >limiter for game
just part of the game if you ask me....( i know - you didnt )
finding ways to disrupt/take advantage of your opponent is a part of every duel so learn from your experiences and adapt, thats part of the challenge...
myself - i'm glad a day @ regionals dosent involve playing 4 monarchs & 4 chaos sorccer or 4 monarchs and 4 stien decks...and i find myself relieve that a $600 deck isnt a must to win...
i admit i get tired of hearing that as soon as some one has a 1 or 2 card & 1000 life point advantage that they should be assured the win...life isnt like that - why should a game??? and if a game is turned around and won from behind - its luck...huh - the same luck that gave one playr an advantage in the first place?? life is full of twists and turns, tough beats and good times -enjoy them all - its part of life - real & fantasy....
sorry about the rant - it was fun.... feel free to opine
:D
 
I completely agree with that. No matter what decks there are, people always complain. I'm actually happy to see Demise decks being around as it gives rituals the spotlight for once in while. As well as vanilla monsters like Neo Bug and even Metal Armored Bug. I mean honestly, who would have ever imagined Metal Armored Bug being in a SJC top 8 before Advanced Ritual Art was heard of?

Demise is nothing like what Cyber-Stein was. Cyber-Stein was able to win the game on its own. Demise on the other hand requires at least a four card combo to win a game. Huge difference there. Also, seeing how you must dedicate an entire deck to Demise, it makes it easy to side against. At my last regional here in Ireland, I lost in the quarter finals to a Demise OTK, but my single copy of Prohibition did a great job. The only problem was I did not expect the Heavy Storm. But even that shows Demise can be simple to side against. I know myself that I need to side something more different like Cursed Seal of the Forbidden Spell. "Teched Stein" was the main problem anyways, since it was nearly impossible to side versus a single copy of a card.

I actually like the game to have OTKs to be honest. It's a unique strategy that deserves to live as long as it is beatable. If I lose to an OTK, I'd shake my opponent's hand and say "Good game!". I wouldn't complain about it and I'd learn from that match how to beat it. Also, should an OTK become extremely popular, as long as you can find a consistent counter, it makes winning all the more easier since your opponent's will be constantly predictable.
 
Except you CAN'T Pull the Rug on Demise.

Pulling the Rug only works on certain Trigger Effects.

Demise is an Ignition effect.
 
cuzwbd said:
bumbling around on another ygo forum... and MAN what a bunch of whiners...demise this... demise = stein... blah blah ruin the game blah blah....
i do not get it ...this format has had the most variety of winning decks i can remember...am i wrong there?
and demise is a fragile win condition at best.... very easy to side deck against
most popular decks seem to have the ability to make a big swing right? effectively making a otk.....
ddt>dimension fusion for game
bazooper> rfdd for game
6 samurai>grandmaster>shogun for +4k lp =gg
when a monarch deck starts tributing monarchs for monarchs to end in 2 or 3 turns
future>overload for game
burn decks wiping 1/2 of lp in one turn....
gadget>ultimate offering for game
machines>heavy >limiter for game
just part of the game if you ask me....( i know - you didnt )
finding ways to disrupt/take advantage of your opponent is a part of every duel so learn from your experiences and adapt, thats part of the challenge...
myself - i'm glad a day @ regionals dosent involve playing 4 monarchs & 4 chaos sorccer or 4 monarchs and 4 stien decks...and i find myself relieve that a $600 deck isnt a must to win...
i admit i get tired of hearing that as soon as some one has a 1 or 2 card & 1000 life point advantage that they should be assured the win...life isnt like that - why should a game??? and if a game is turned around and won from behind - its luck...huh - the same luck that gave one playr an advantage in the first place?? life is full of twists and turns, tough beats and good times -enjoy them all - its part of life - real & fantasy....
sorry about the rant - it was fun.... feel free to opine
:D
Click to expand...

Ok to counter-rant slightly. Fragile win condition? Have you ever had to deal with this deck repeatedly? While I will admit it's not the most consistant out there, it is the biggest-lucksack deck type out there. Unlike the Stein decks where you had to knock your opponent down below the 5000 life point mark, you have to work harder to get them below 2000 here. Further, if you devote most of your side deck to trying to stop this, you'll find yourself in trouble against other decktypes. Looking at your other decktypes you list as easy to do OTKs:

DDT: Dimension Fusion is Restricted.
Gadgets/Machines: Limiter Removal, Future Fusion, Overload Fusion, Ultimate Offering all are Restricted.
Burn Decks, Six Samurai, Monarchs: Yeah they may hit hard, but they're not OTKs.
Bazoo/Card Trooper: Anything that relies on traps has more of a risk of being destroyed/negated before you can fire it off.

Further, even if Demise is a 4 Card Combo, don't forget that the 2 Key Cards are both Searchable. Plus the one thing it has over the other deck types is the fact that the key parts to the OTK occur AFTER Demise has blown up the field. With your other deck types, unless you got lucky to have cleared away the backfield, you're subject to mass removal from Mirror Force or Torrential Tribute and the threat is stopped. With Demise, I pay 2000 and what's the best you're going to get? 1 Monster? I can still bring out Doom Dozer and Metamorphosis it. I can still Premature Demise and Metamorphosis it. And if I don't have Metamorphosis, I can still do the other options mentioned and tack on a Normal Summon too. The fact further coupled with that even if you are winning and dominating, as long as they have more than 2000, they can come back and swing for game in 1 turn. This was general complaint back in the Chaos days where you could be winning, see an Envoy hit the field and *boom* you just lost. This is vastly different than if I'm almost beat but managed to stop your offense, and then slowly crawled back and you couldn't stop mine.

Even with the right side deck to stop it, most likely you're going to lose the first round. Couple this with having to face the deck more than once throughout your day and the odds don't look good that you're going to win consistantly (or at all). It doesn't take much skill or thought to say "destroy the field, swing for game". And that's what has most people really annoyed by this. Ok, so only 1 round in the finals of the SJC was over inside of 1 turn instead of both rounds. Still seems rather anti-climactic.

Yeah yeah, there are a lot of different deck types that can top and win these days. That's good. But if you are trying to win, you're basically with faced with having to worry about preparing for several of the other common deck types and leave yourself open with having less defense against this one, or preparing hard for this one and leaving yourself open to the rest.

Look at it this way. When you duel someone, you get more anxious as your life points get lower and you have to start playing more cautious (or aggressive) since you know if you leave that DD Warrior Lady in attack position, you can get crushed for just enough to kill you (but you still are trying to win yourself). Do you really want to get that feeling on the first turn when you see that 8000 life points isn't enough to maybe let you survive the turn and every move you make could be your last?
 
i still maintain its fragile - one reason it gets dominated, but still wins is, its not a back & forth duel - it takes some beats & stalls while assembling the parts...be it turn 1 or turn 10....common cards that wreck it are a plenty...just a few( not all) that put it to me tonight were; confi, don zaloog, thestalos, card destruction, morphing jar, bottomless traphole, d d crow, my body as a shield, torrriental, book of moon, enemy controller, transmigration prophecy, nsg mole,cured seal of the forbidden spell, pulling the rug, banisher, waboku,sacred phoenix, and so on - the real win condition cards are the doom dozers and ara - both are dependant on the normal monsters to function, granted they intertwine deliciously... but whack/prevent those 6 and the deck is a handful of playable monsters and a whole bunch of dead draws and since they are fetchable - you know as duel goes on what is in hand - easier to side against?
how about end of anubis and spell canceller? skill drain?
 
I never said it wasn't beatable.

But if you build your deck around the cards you listed, you're going to die to most of the other decks out there. A lot of those cares are very situational towards stopping Demise and not always a great top deck if your opponent doesn't play straight into whatever counter you might have.
 
multiples of those were in decks...not sided...well in some cases...but chainable utility is more important than ever i agree
and strats that kept chaos sorcerer in hand work with doomdozer too - kycoo for example....
 
Except you CAN'T Pull the Rug on Demise.

Pulling the Rug only works on certain Trigger Effects.

Demise is an Ignition effect.
Click to expand...

I THINK he meant Pulling the Rug on the Ritual searchers. Yeah, you can't do it on Demise, but you sure as heck can do it to Sonic Bird, Manju and Senju. In fact, against Demise deck, I would put my 3x Pulling the Rug on my sidedeck into main.

I do agree is that Demise isn't stein.

#1: Pulling the Rug kills the most needed searching ability of the needed Sonic Bird/Manju/Senju.

#2: Royal Oppression forces the foe to have to use MST/Giant Trunade/Heavy Storm/Twister/Royal Decree/etc. for the OTK game. (This is probably why you see Royal Decree in most sidedecks for Demise decks. They need to shut down Pulling the Rug, Royal Oppression, Waboku, Threatening Roar, Trap Dustshoot, Mind Crush, etc. Either that or Solemn Judgment. I've even seen Solemn Judgment vs Solemn Judgment during a Demise vs Gadget deck after sidedecking.)

And overall, the card needed is a bit too much. It at least needs 4 cards. And then after sidedecking, it at least needs 5 cards once the player flips Royal Oppression to force the foe to use Heavy/Trunade/Royal Decree/etc. (And Trunade is also 1x per deck now) A couple good Trap Dustshoot/Mind Crush/ D.D. Designator will stop it.

Yeah, it's like Stein, but a much SLOWER stein. And since soo much of the needed deckspace is needed for either the combo pieces or cards to search out combo pieces that they don't usually have enough room for stall cards. And higher need for card combo can lead to dying before pulling your win condition.

And man, if we had Gors, then Demise OTK would be alot harder. Cause even if they pull out Cyber Twin + Doom Dozer (Or Doom Dozer + Mega with Demise) on a blank field, after the first one attack Gors and a token will be summoned on defense and the rest can't attack for game. (Gors, an anti-OTK card even worst then Kuriboh)

But in the end, IMO, Konami will think about either limiting or restricting Advanced Ritual Art into 1~2x per deck. It IS a Future Fusion for Ritual monsters.
 
Yes Gorz would be nasty for the Anti-Demise (and man does he feed Norleras).

And I'm listening to all the great counter strategies. However everyone is seeming to miss the point. If you want to main deck all these things that can stop Demise, you better be running a Counter Fairy deck to take advantage of it cause otherwise you will have a hard time winning because when you run into a non-Demise deck that has more versitility (but less of an explosive punch) you're going to find most of these cards are going to be dead draws.

Further, you're looking at things in a straight up one on one matchup. Yeah, if you have it main decked, you'll be in a better position to win. If it's side decked, you're looking at coming from behind unless you did get lucky to steal away round 1. However, over the course of a tournament, the more times I have to face this deck (just on luck alone), the less my chances will be that I will be able to pull what I need to stop it. Why? Because unless I have a rogue deck to catch everyone by surprise, I will still need tools to beat other main decks outside of Demise. You can't look at it in a vacuum. And Advanced Ritual Art isn't the problem either. Yeah it helps greatly, but use it with other Ritual Monsters and you're not looking at sweeping come-from-behind victories.

You're looking at the card and thinking "oh it's easy to stop". EVERYTHING is "easy to stop". But you have to look at the Meta- as a whole. This isn't casual play I'm looking at. You have to look at it as a player entering Regionals, Cash Tournaments, SJCs, whatever who is trying to win and what I have to do to win. And even knowing and having the tools to stop this still has me at a disadvantage since with a deckful of searchers and reloadable cards means I still have a good chance on pulling the combo before you pull everything you need to stop it. Again remember, when I blow up the field, the most you might get right then is Demise himself which is not true of other OTKs. Only DDT may have a greater luck factor involved, but you still have to think to run that deck properly as well as try to refetch back something you might not want to lose. Demise IS a no-brain deck type in comparison which is why it has cheesed off a lot of people (even when the deck WASN'T topping). After all, I don't want to run into a deck that can beat me out of nowhere just because I didn't have a counter at that moment.
 
I do agree what you said. I mean, I lost to a Demise deck because of this once.

This happened at regionals.

Roll dice, I go first.

I set 1 s/t 1 monster set.

My foe shows his 6x card in hand in front of me

Heavy Storm, Advanced Ritual Art, Demise, Doom Dozer, 2x Metamorphosis....

I scooped that round immediately... (I was like. OMG!)

I went first again. (even if going against a OTK...)

I set Pulling the Rug, Royal Oppression and Dekoichi.

Foe's turn, I flipped Royal Oppression. My foe summons Manju, I RUGGED HIS FACE! Then he set 1 s/t as well.

My turn, I flipped Deko, drew and attacked into Scapegoats.

His turn, Giant Trunade.... and after that it was all over as he had Demise, Advanced Ritual Art, Doom Dozer and Megamorph... (He told me his first 6x hands were Giant Trunade, Demise, Manju, Scapegoat, Doom Dozer, Megamorph. Even though I rugged him, he still drew into Advanced Ritual Art next turn... I asked him why didn't he Giant Trunade first. Then he told me the player before him actually had a Giant Orc + DDV set that killed Ritual serachers in his deck and lost... so was afraid. Interesting.)

see, the only thing I don't like is that if my foe have REALLY GOOD LUCK with Demise and draws into perfect hand way too fast... (At a times like this, I want my 3x Mind Crush in my sidedeck. Then I can literally take a pot-luck guess and declare either Advanced Ritual Art or Demise when that happens.)
 
Pulling the rug does do good against Demise. I didn't even think about royal Oppression. That is really good.

And I agree, the Demise deck is hard to beat game 1. But if you have the right stuff to side deck, you have a good fighting chance in latter games. Unless the opponent anticipates pulling the rug and waboku and sides royal decree. Had that happen to me. Really not fun, when you think you stopped the deck and your opponent is ready for it already.
 
Demise decks these days altready top 8 frequently, and they rarely OTK anyway. But what if I said you can build demise OTK so that it kills in under 5 turns 98% of the time, and averages 2.8 turns to a kill.

When these decks hit the scene, you can pretty much try whatever you want. There are a gazillion answers to Demise OTK, but they won't do you much good when you have to find them in your first 8 or 9 cards.

Lets just enjoy the diversity we have now, and next format they'll adress this issue, and all will be dandy again. But expect Demise to become very, very broken.
 
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