Win and Lose

[Fury]

What happens if you win and lose at the same time? Like during the resolution of a chain link.

 

[Digital Jedi]

Both of densetsu's examples were valid because you didn't specify what kind of effect we were dealing with.

I'm not sure where you read two effects in his first example, because he only used one.

Sorry, after I gave an example I thought we are talking about that. My example was 1 effect, while densetsu_x' was 2:
Curse of Darkness/Chain Blast and Exodia.

You misunderstand. DX was comparing your effect to those two cards.

It's your hypothetical effect in the form of a trigger.

Trigger? Where? My hypothetical card said:
"Draw 1 card. If it's a monster you take [lethal] damage."

I said it's your effect in the form of a trigger.

His second example puts your hypothetical effect into the form of an Ignition-like activation.

Well his effect seems totally like mine. A normal spell that lets you draw then lose all LP.

When I first read your post, it didn;t read like effect text, so we just presumed you were sighting an example. Even so, the reason we break it up into two different types is to show that no matter how you slice it, there's no simultaneous win/loose condition.

He's not saying you loose in the middle of resolution, he's saying you loose at resolution, when the effect completely finishes. The continuous nature of Exodia will not interrupt nor coincide with the Life Point Damage. That damage will take place first, then if you've been reduced to 0 you've lost, regardless of what cards you have in your hand.

What is this at resolution you speak of? Part of the resolution or after it is completed?
Or after the resolution but before it is completed? (Does this makes any sense???)

"At" resolution means at the end of the effect. When its finished and not during the effect or in the middle. The moment when it's done.

The "Exodia" win is a Game Condition. It's more like a Continuous effect (I said it's LIKE a continuous effect, not it IS one). As soon as the last piece of "Exodia" hits the hand from the draw, you win...that's it...end of game. There is nothing else to check for or do.

Exactly my point. Exodia is a win condition exactly the same way as losing all LP. Even if you threat it as a continuous effect I see no difference.

There's already rulings on the nature of Contious Effects inserting themselves in between chain links. That's why we make the comparison. If you take damage that reduces you to 0 from a chain link you loose the game. If there were a Continuous Effect that would increase your life points at the end of that chain link,they won't, Because you've already lost the game at that point.

That damage will take place first, then if you've been reduced to 0 you've lost, regardless of what cards you have in your hand.

So win conditions have a priority list, too? Cool.ldwink
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OFF: Now that I checked the FAQ I'm confused about the ruling on Curse of Darkness.

"Curse of Darkness" inflicts 1000 damage right after the Spell Card is activated, not when it resolves. If the Spell Card's activation is negated however, such as with "Magic Jammer", then no damage is inflicted because the activation was negated.

"Curse of Darkness" does not form a new chain and cannot be chained to. You can chain to the Spell Card itself, after "Curse of Darkness" inflicts its 1000 damage.

So this is a continuous effect. But when is the damage applied: First I though at resolution because only at that point you will know if it's activation wasnt negated. But it says right after it activates, but also that it doesnt happed if it's negated. Seems contradictionary to me.

Curse of Darkness (and Spell Absorption) aren't any different from any other Continuous Cards that does it's thing at a very specific time. They following the timing on their card text, activation of a Spell Card. They are a blanket effect that only looks for a specific thing to happen and then immediately adjust the game accordingly. Note that their effect states how they work in their effect text (though it's, admittidly, not as clear as it should be)

But those are very specific effects with very specific timing as to when they do their thing. The only reason these work differently is because they have text that gives them very specific timing.

 

[Digital Jedi]

If you can't win the game with Exodia during a single chain link (you have to wait until a gap between the links), how can you lose due to 0 Life Points in the middle of that chain link?

It was my understanding that any endgame scenario (both Exodia, 0 Life Points, and others) were checked continuously outside of each individual chain link. That is, your Life Points are checked just as often as Exodia is checked for.

You're saying at the end of a chain link, if your Life Points are zero, you lose. But when you're able to check this, you're also able to check for Exodia, meaning you'd win from that. Both winning and losing would constitute a Schrodinger Finish.

When the chain link ends you would loose. There's an order to the way effects occur in this game, everything is linear which is why we have the SEGOC mechanic. You don't resolve a Link and check for Exodia at the same time. Just like you don't resolve a link and check for Continuous Effects at the same time. You resolve one and then check for the other systematically.

 

[Maruno]

So there's a kind of End Step for a chain link now? You check the Life Points endgame scenario during that time, but no other endgame scenarios? Doesn't sound right.

The thing is, though, when the chain link ends you go immediately to a miscroscopic gap between chain links where Continuous effects become active. Exodia is certainly checked here, as is Life Points. But why should one EGS get priority over the other?

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

So there's a kind of End Step for a chain link now? You check the Life Points endgame scenario during that time, but no other endgame scenarios? Doesn't sound right.

Not really,

The game does not exist when there are no Life points,

i.e. if there were a card effect that says take 1000 then do this. You will not even resolve the "do this" part if your life points hit zero.

Its the same thing with Drawing a card,

If you don't have cards to draw for "7", you will lose the game before destroying the 3 copies of "7". (Assuming you legally activated it first, then an effect was chained to remove cards from your deck)

The thing is, though, when the chain link ends you go immediately to a miscroscopic gap between chain links where Continuous effects become active. Exodia is certainly checked here, as is Life Points. But why should one EGS get priority over the other?

The Life points, and "no cards to draw" are the built in game mechanics, taht is they can end the game immediately.

All other win conditions are not built into the game, but built into the card, so that's why they have to wait jsut like any other card generated effect/condition.

 

[blade146]

Checking lifepoints doesn't use the chain or wait on anything else to resolve. If you have 0 lifepoints before you draw that last exodia card you lose. If you draw the last card before you reach 0 you win. All you have to figure out is which effect happens first.

There is a card that states you lose 1000 when you draw . After you draw the card is in your hand and the 1000 lp lose activates but doesn't resolve. Before it resolves you check and have all of Exodia. You win because the 1000 loss hasn't resolved yet.

 

[Maruno]

All other win conditions are not built into the game, but built into the card, so that's why they have to wait jsut like any other card generated effect/condition.

All you needed to do was say that. My brain must have gone weird. I get it now.

 

[Fury]

All other win conditions are not built into the game, but built into the card, so that's why they have to wait jsut like any other card generated effect/condition.

That sounds nice but I'm not convinced.

Your "7" example was also a bit strange, at least I have another explanation why the cards arent destroyed after you are unable to draw.
The draw is mandatory for the effect to continue.
Like Dark World Lightning:

If you do not destroy the targeted face-down card with the effect of "Dark World Lightning" (such as if it is face-up as resolution, or if it is destroyed by another effect first), you do NOT discard 1 card from your hand.

Or Pot of Avarice:

If any of the 5 monsters targeted by "Pot of Avarice" are removed from the Graveyard before its effect resolves, for example by "Disappear" or "Call of the Haunted", then the entire effect of "Pot of Avarice" disappears. You do not shuffle the other monsters into your Deck and you do not draw 2 cards.

So you try to draw, cant, and the effect ends. Then you check win conditions and continuous effects. Then you see you lost. It doesnt happen in the middle of a chain link.

It's just that my version seems more consistent - at least for me ldwink

All you needed to do was say that. My brain must have gone weird. I get it now.

You give up? We were such a good teamldbgrin

 

[Maruno]

You give up? We were such a good teamldbgrin

Sorry, guy, but I realised the error in my thinking, so I jumped ship. The "zero Life Points" thing is a part of the game, not a card effect, and as such works in the middle of chain links too (we assume). There's still a gap between doing everything in a chain link and finishing it (i.e. moving to a gap between chain links), and that's when you lose with 0 Life Points.

 

[masterwoo0]

Sorry, guy, but I realised the error in my thinking, so I jumped ship. The "zero Life Points" thing is a part of the game, not a card effect, and as such works in the middle of chain links too (we assume). There's still a gap between doing everything in a chain link and finishing it (i.e. moving to a gap between chain links), and that's when you lose with 0 Life Points.

Zero life points is part of the game, but Curse of Darkness can't happen "immediately", or else you would be unable to negate the activation of the Spell Card, since you would be dead if you didnt have enough life points. So something must put the damage on hold until the Spell Card actually moves past the point of "Activation".

Obviously, dying then coming back to life because the Spell Card was negated is a problem here....

 

[Maruno]

There's been a discussion (somewhat) about this, with no conclusion.

http://www.cogonline.net/threads.17289

 

[masterwoo0]

There's been a discussion (somewhat) about this, with no conclusion.

http://www.cogonline.net/threads.17289

Oh I know that, which is why I didnt bother to post the link, because it wouldnt have done anything as far as adding to the discussion a "definite" answer.