A Modest Proposal to Fix YGO

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CardsOfTheHeart

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Several of you may have seen this floating around on other message boards. In that case, you know what's going on, here.

If not, let me fill you in. It's obvious to most duelists that the game of YGO isn't perfect. Today, a LV2 Judge has made a proposal to fix YGO and change the game as we know it.

Here, I'll let you see it in his own words:

For awhile now, many of us have begun to realize that should YGO want to get a more balanced environment, it will be at the cost of many cards we've considered staples and replacing them with Attribute or Type specific counterparts, also developing a flavor for them similar to the teams in VS and the colors in MTG.

The main problem that has stood in the way is the game's ties to the manga and anime. It is where this sprang from, but it needs to evolve into something more stable. Our game is different from the base material anyway, they use smaller amounts of life and effects so not have a systematic order of resolution. We need to move away from the material as a game in order to fix the inherrent problems. Odds are that should the changes work well, the material can grow to meet us.

Overall this is quite do-able, but the game can't go on too much longer in this current state. Indeed, Konami has pulled the metaphorical rabbit out of the hat more than a few times as the game seemed to trail off. They can't have much more left, though. New mechanics haven't worked that well. Periodically banning and unbanning cards will not fix anything in this game permanently. Releasing general "tamer" versions of banned cards is not solving the issue either. What has to be done?

To that end, I suggest this modest proposal... (if something comes of this, so be it. I would like to see this game live on and make have decent run alongside its competitors and not become a "fad game" in our minds 3 years from now.)

The first step is to create flavor for Types and Attributes. Earth can be of one flavor while Light and Dark both do something extremely different. Machines can be different from Warriors and Spellcasters. Its about creating a guideline and forming the cards around that.

Once we do that, we have to see where in flavor certain effects/mechanics fall. Change of Heart is not the same flavor as Monster Reborn or Pot of Greed. Again, examine mechanics to the set guidlines and you will begin fixing the problem by sorting where things need to be.

As a result, the second step is to eliminate problem cards from the card pool. This will not change the fact that certain cards will need to be limited due to power and abuse. In fact some cards might need to be banned... even with limits and structure, things can be too powerful for the format. (MTG still deals with this...)

Now, here's the idea list of cards that need to be gone on based off of what they do:

Banned

Chaos Emporer Dragon
Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning
Chaos Sorcerer
Yata-Garasu
Makyura the Destructor
Magical Scientist
Fiber Jar
Cyber Jar
Sangan
Witch of the Black Forest
Snatch Steal
Change of Heart
Pot of Greed
Upstart Goblin
Reckless Greed
Graceful Charity
Mirage of Nightmare
Monster Reborn
Premature Burial
Dark Hole
Raigeki
Offerings to the Doomed
Smashing Ground
Hammershot
Fissure
Shield Crush
Harpie's Feather Duster
Heavy Storm
Six Sense
Butterfly Dagger Elma
Mystical Space Typhoon
Dust Tornado
Mirror Force
Sakuretsu Armor
Magic Cylinder
Negate Attack
Waboku
Forceful Sentry
Delinquent Duo
Confiscation
Ring of Destruction
Painful Choice
Sinister Serpent
Swords of Revealing Light
Torrential Tribute
Book of Moon
Jinzo
Spell Canceller
Pot of Avarice
Imperial Order
Royal Command
Royal Decree
Magical Mineral Shard
Double Spell
Nobleman of Extermination
Nobleman of Crossout
etc...

Now bear with me, I'm trying to do a clean sweep of a lot of stuff. Mostly, these are general cards that give a lot in return for what is put in. There are certainly more that qualify... I just can't list them all.

Now to the Restricted:

Restricted to 1

D.D. Warrior Lady
Injection Fairy Lily
Dark Magician of Chaos
Thousand Eyes Restrict
Protector of the Sanctuary
Tsukuyomi
Twin-Headed Behemoth
Night Assailant
Exiled Force
Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys
Exodia the Forbidden One
Right Leg of the Forbidden One
Right Arm of the Forbidden One
Left Leg of the Foribidden One
Left Arm of the Forbidden One
Marshmallon
Breaker the Magical Warrior
Morphing Jar
Scapegoat
United We Stand
Card Destruction
Mage Power
Metamorphosis
Limiter Removal
Deck Destruction Virus of Death
Ceasefire
Exchange of the Spirit
Treeborn Frog
D.D. Assailant
Dandelion
Magician of Faith
Mask of Darkness
Cyber Dragon
Temple of the Kings
D.D. Warrior

Semi-Limited
Last Will
Level Limit - Area B
Drop Off
Apprentice Magician
Deck Devastation Virus
Reflect Bounder
Manticore of Darkness
Reinforcement of the Army
Emergency Provisions
Gravity Bind
Gravekeeper's Spy


This is just the beginning of the idea... let's discuss this and find a way to fix the game into one where the field of a regional will not be primarlity 3 decks. We can work together on this...

Let's start...
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Why dont we just Ban all effect monster cards and be done with it?

Then, the next thing that would happen is people would start asking for cards like Summoned Skull to be banned because it is too easy to summon.

At some point, we just need to play the game, and stop crying over what is and isnt banned. Checkers is a fun game, but I dont play that much anymore either. Point is, people are going to play this game until they find something else that excites them.
 
Just one simple question: How many of these threads are we going to get?

And just as an attempt to keep this on topic: I disagree about semi-limiting Last Will.
 
lol! I thought when I saw "A modest proposal" that it was going to suggest we start eating players, like Thomas Payne.

A lot of players have hinted at a total restructuring of the game, similar to the massive change that swept Magic, years ago. I won't deny that it has appeal, on many fronts. But this is very theoretical. Gamers want one thing, corporations want another. Sometimes they coincide, sometimes they collide.

To be honest, Im not quite clear on what this author is proposing for the "flavor" for different Types and Attributes. Normally, I think of the definition for "flavor" being the text on Normal Monsters, which does not affect the mechanics of the game. This author is obviously suggesting something different, but its too vague to really gain an understanding of how effective or chaotic such a restructuring would be.

The ect ect for the list is too vague, as well. If the concept has been thorougly thought through, it would be helpful (for understanding purposes) if the entire lists were spelled out.

Last thing, you have to really consider some things such as how to restructure effect templating to avoid the former problems of anomoly rulings, and how to do the entire thing without ruining the unique quality of what makes YGO different and fun right now. There is not really a need to separate from the comic book totally. There is not the need to slow it down to mimic what happens in VS or Magic. The fun of it is that it remains different. Otherwise, gamers are more than likely to simply abandon this game and pick up one which is an identical type, and has already established the rules and such. Because you can be sure that no matter what change happens, there will be bumps and unforeseen mishaps just waiting to surface.

please be careful though. As I noted, this topic has been around for a long time. It also tends to create antagonism and bi-partisan snetiments all over the web. Rarely has such a topic gone on, without being locked.
 
Jason_C said:
Just one simple question: How many of these threads are we going to get?

And just as an attempt to keep this on topic: I disagree about semi-limiting Last Will.
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How many roads must a man walk down, before they call him a man? And how many......


ok, I'll stop
 
To be honest, Im not quite clear on what this author is proposing for the "flavor" for different Types and Attributes. Normally, I think of the definition for "flavor" being the text on Normal Monsters, which does not affect the mechanics of the game. This author is obviously suggesting something different, but its too vague to really gain an understanding of how effective or chaotic such a restructuring would be.
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I believe the concept implied is like how Fiends have the "flavor" of taking control of monsters, rocks have the "flavor" of RFPing from the grave, beasts have aggro / trample, etc. The idea being that, for example, you could ban Change of Heart and release a card that does the same thing, but can only be activated while a Fiend is on the field. Ban Harpie's Feather Duster, and release a card that does the same thing but requires a Harpie, or at the very least a Wind.

NOTE: I neither support nor reject this idea. I reject this debate as a whole. I was merely clarifying for antoher member.
 
We haven't had any or many threads on restructuring the game of Yu-Gi-Oh! as whole, which is what the author was hinting at. A new ban list was only the first step in the process. This is not a ban list discussion, but a restructuring discussion. Any kind of restructuring to this game would require a permanent ban of some kind.

The only problem I see in the ban list he sets up is that it seems to be an attempt to slow the game down as much as possible. That's not the direction you should take.

I still prefer the errataing of overpowered cards to something more type or situation specific. A Harpie's Feather Duster that can only be played with a Harpie Lady on the field. A Dark Hole where you cannot attack the turn it's played. A Raigeki that does the same or perhaps let's your opponent keep something small in the respolution.

And before anyone starts thinking that won't work because then we'd have to explain to new players that their old cards have the wrong text and that it works differently now, well, we already do that now. A giant fraction of the cards already in circulation have the wrong text on them. How many people do you know have a copy of Bottomless Trap Hole, Ultimate Offering, Command Knight etc, with correct text as opposed to the people playing with old texts?

We have to remember that any pancea will only make the game "more consistant", but we've come to far to put a band-aid on a severed leg. What I'm saying is, we can fix it up to a point, but we can't fix it to everybody's satisfaction. There are to many cards in circulation to provide a scenario where everybody is happy. A massive ban list will only depreciate the binders of millions of players. A massive errata however will keep those cards in circulation, it will just mean that we have to teach new payers the correct way to do thing, which is what we already have to do with most cards and most mechanics now. Honestly, I think it could only make things easier.
 
not a problem, Jason. Im not exactly the kind of person that gets worked up easily anyways. Only by outright rudeness....without a sense of humor. With humor is so much more fun.

I just like the abstract conversation.
 
Or, if you mean by "easier", "less fun", then I'll agree with that. Part of the fun of Yugioh comes when you finally acquire a card like Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning. How you got it doesnt matter, only that you now have one.

Then, you have a million other players who misuse it, misplay it, and generally OVER play it. Now, its no longer fun, and ends up getting banned.

Taking a card like Harpie's Feather Duster and attaching it to a card that only makes it playable if you want to ruin your deck's synergy, is not the answer. Right now, it fits everywhere. If I wanted to make a Earth Deck, that would mean that I have to fit a Harpy Monster or else I cant use it. Cost Payment is much better. If you want to make a version of Duster that is ONLY useful in Harpy Decks, then that's okay, but dont mess with the original.
 
masterwoo0 said:
Or, if you mean by "easier", "less fun", then I'll agree with that. Part of the fun of Yugioh comes when you finally acquire a card like Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning. How you got it doesnt matter, only that you now have one.

Then, you have a million other players who misuse it, misplay it, and generally OVER play it. Now, its no longer fun, and ends up getting banned.

Taking a card like Harpie's Feather Duster and attaching it to a card that only makes it playable if you want to ruin your decks synergy, is not the answer. Right now, it fits everywhere. If I wanted to make a Earth Deck, that would meant that I have to fit a Harpy Monster or else I cant use it. Cost Payment is much better. If you want to make a version of Duster that is ONLY useful in Harpy Decks, then that's okay, but dont mess with the original.
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But that was the point he was making. You just said it yourself, and is that type of thinking that spawns Deck after Deck of the same type of cards being put into Deck and the makers fooling themselves into thinking it is a great Deck, they made it with their hard work, and so on when they did not. Cards like Harpie Feather, Raigeki, and so on are examples of how Konami did not know how to manage the game when they first started producing the cards. You want to use Harpie Feather Duster because it is a great card and you do not want to be forced to run a certain card in order to be able to use it? Tough. People are spoiled. I wish we had more cards like A Wingbeat of Giant Dragon. Elemental Heroes are getting themselves a Heavy Storm of sorts and if I was using that Deck I would never put a Heavy Storm in, at least not Main Deck it. Cards like Lightining Vortex are examples of what cards like Raigeki SHOULD have been doing in the first place.
 
As I said, no fix would make everybody happy. What you find "less fun" I find more fun. I only arbitrarily "fixed" a few cards that I view as overpowered. A carefully thought out set of erratas would probably reformat a few of the cards that I would lament the passing of. But in the end, it's not about making evey individual person satisfied, it's about bringing stability to an otherwise unstable game.

When you look at it one way, you don't get to play Harpie's Feather Duster now, so why would errating it to gove it room in a least some decks make it "less fun" to play? Largely because you don't get to play it the way it was when it erradicated everything in existance.

The point is, we need a general fix. Not an all purpose fix. Trust me, you won't be hapyy with everything that a fix would bring. And not everyone will be. It just won't happen. But a general fix is the only way to keep this game from eating itself into entorpy, and I'd rather listen to a few people whine becuase they can't attack after playing Dark Hole then have to wait every six months to see if I have to completely redo my deck or not.
 
Okay... How many decks will we have if no one wants to give up their Harpie's Feather Duster and goes with the new change? At least with it being the way it is now, you can play anything (people just dont), but if you change it, all we are going to see is different versions of Wind Decks all based on Harpy Ladies.

But that's just an example of one card. There isnt any fix you can do to satisfy "everyone". My kind of thinking is that we have the cards we needed banned. You are never going to get people to gravitate away from a formula that works without finding a reward for originality. The only reward as of now is winning a box, promo card, computer, Ipod, PSP, etc... And you only have to have the Deck that finished first.

If you rewarded players on most original decks as well, then that might spur a challenge. How many times do you see the same deck at a Sneak Preview? Very rare, but people still win, and its that "unknown" that makes it the most fun!
 
You know, it makes me think of Dark Magician and Dark Magic Attack; BEWD and Burst Stream Destruction; REBD and Inferno Fire Blast. It just seems that those small efforts were too timid, as if testing the waters. When those effects were rejected, or rather ignored, they never made new ones. I would have loved to have seen more along those same lines. Especially the Lightning Attack attached to Summoned Skull.

I don't see it as ruining synergy, as it is diversifying and classifying. My only fear is that the end result would end up too similar to the color coding used for Magic.
 
Who is original in YGO? Until you show me a Deck that has won a tourney that is not just some variation of some other tourney winning Deck or CC Deck then all of that is just moot. You are basing a hypothetical assumption on players actually accepting changes like that and putting together a WIND Deck just to use 1 certain card. That would be bad, but then again WHAT DOES WIND even have playable right now? You are giving people too much credit in that department. People already do what you describe already. I rather people base their Decks on a theme than just randomly putting good cards in a Deck and thinking it is l33t.
 
squid said:
You know, it makes me think of Dark Magician and Dark Magic Attack; BEWD and Burst Stream Destruction; REBD and Inferno Fire Blast. It just seems that those small efforts were too timid, as if testing the waters. When those effects were rejected, or rather ignored, they never made new ones. I would have loved to have seen more along those same lines. Especially the Lightning Attack attached to Summoned Skull.

I don't see it as ruining synergy, as it is diversifying and classifying. My only fear is that the end result would end up too similar to the color coding used for Magic.
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You mean Makiu? They do have that and it is so fantastic. There are so many cards out there that are fantastic and yet because everyone decided they wanted to win above everything else we never hear about them or see them played. A card like Dark Magic Attack would not be restricted or limited because it is already limited to the type of Deck and the type of card on the field it can be used with. I think making Harpie Feather Duster that way would be a step in the right direction, of course Harpie Decks already got some God Attack card that is totally overpowered, but then again it is a HARPIE Deck so what do they even got now? Harpie Feather would still be restricted to 1 in that format because how easy is it to just Normal Summon one? With Dark Magic Attack you have to work your way to get Dark Magician on the field to use it.
 
Tiso said:
You are basing a hypothetical assumption on players actually accepting changes like that and putting together a WIND Deck just to use 1 certain card.
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Isnt that what they did with BLS and CED?? Put together a deck just to use 1 card? That's the nature of the beast...
 
masterwoo0 said:
Isnt that what they did with BLS and CED?? Put together a deck just to use 1 card? That's the nature of the beast...
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Entirely different concepts. We have a card that is not game ending being compared to game ending cards. Not to mention how much of a change did people do to rearrange their Decks. They were already using LIGHT and DARK monsters like D.D. Warrior Lady so it was not as hard to bring about those 2 cards you mentioned. Not to mention, they were the basis of the Chaos Deck.
 
Tiso said:
Who is original in YGO? Until you show me a Deck that has won a tourney that is not just some variation of some other tourney winning Deck or CC Deck then all of that is just moot. You are basing a hypothetical assumption on players actually accepting changes like that and putting together a WIND Deck just to use 1 certain card. That would be bad, but then again WHAT DOES WIND even have playable right now? You are giving people too much credit in that department. People already do what you describe already. I rather people base their Decks on a theme than just randomly putting good cards in a Deck and thinking it is l33t.
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An original deck that won a regional? Yata Control. RftDD swarm. Merchant Pot. Clown Control. Each of these original, unthought of ideas won major tournaments. It was only afterwards that they entered the books as copies, because they themselves were copied.

If we worry too much about the lack of support a specific Attribute or Type has "right now" we miss the fact that those same things stand the chance of becoming the next prototype standard. If a change were to happen, it would need to be more sweeping than just attaching popular effects to unpopular types/Attributes.

The E-Hero theme provides the closest example to this idea, right now, though Agent Fairies, Gravekeepers, Archfiends, Level monsters, and Amazonesses all are indicating movements towards that theme.

I will agree with Tiso that, in practice, there is no reason to expect that anyone will use less efficient cards over more generic cards. They are popular because of their power and ease of use. That is simply a fact.

More important, in my eyes, are the cards that have created issues anomolous with the mechanics of the game, or whose presence causes more problems than answers. A short list of examples includes
Twin Headed Behemoth
Fiber Jar
Skill Drain
Last Turn
Makyura (though I really love this card)

edit: you know what? You will have to scratch that whole last part. Its delving too much into ban list material and not into fundamental changes in the game. My bad :oops: Its really easy to get side tracked with this topic, lol >_<
 
Twin-Headed Behemoth was added to the list because Konami, for whatever silly reasons deemed it a confusing card and no one would have an idea of which Twin-Headed Behemoth went to the Graveyard and activated its effect. It had nothing to do with how good or broken it was (which it is not).
 
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