Abyss Soldier

D

Duelmaster

New Member
Does Abyss Soldier target ?

Card Text
Discard 1 WATER monster from your hand to the Graveyard. Return 1 card on the field to the owner's hand. You can only use this effect once per turn, during your Main Phase.


I think it doesn't other wise there would stand Select and return 1 card...
 
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Fiction said:
So wait why does Trap Hole Target if Bottomless does not. Although i relize it is alot hard to normal summon 2 monsters at once a player can responde to a Trap Hole with a Ult Offering allowing him to normal summon another monster. In my eyes both monsters would be drstroyed being that is how the Bottomless ruling goes.
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How ever each summon through Ultimate Offering is seperate. You don't pay 1500 to Normal Summon 3 monsters, you pay 500 to Normal Summon and then 500 Normal Summon and then 500 Normal Summon again.
 
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Digital Jedi said:
How ever each summon through Ultimate Offering is seperate. You don't pay 1500 to Normal Summon 3 monsters, you pay 500 to Normal Summon and then 500 Normal Summon and then 500 Normal Summon again.
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However there is a scenario where it would work with Bottomless Trap Hole.

[event] Turn Player Normal Summons Gemini Elf (or any monster you wish)

(Summon Response Chain}
TP Pass
[OP Chain Link 1] Bottomless Trap Hole
[TP Chain Link 2] Ultimate Offering (pay 500 LP)
[TP Chain Link 3] Ultimate Offering (pay 500 LP)

resolve...

Because of BTH's non-targeted nature, all 3 monsters would be destroyed (Gemini & the 2 summoned by UO). It shouldn't work this way, but it does.

This of course doesn't work with the normal Trap Hole, because it can only destroy the first target monster (Gemini Elf).
 
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novastar said:
However there is a scenario where it would work with Bottomless Trap Hole.

[event] Turn Player Normal Summons Gemini Elf (or any monster you wish)

(Summon Response Chain}
TP Pass
[OP Chain Link 1] Bottomless Trap Hole
[TP Chain Link 2] Ultimate Offering (pay 500 LP)
[TP Chain Link 3] Ultimate Offering (pay 500 LP)

resolve...

Because of BTH's non-targeted nature, all 3 monsters would be destroyed (Gemini & the 2 summoned by UO). It shouldn't work this way, but it does.

This of course doesn't work with the normal Trap Hole, because it can only destroy the first target monster (Gemini Elf).
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Woah...wait a minute! Are you sure?

The monsters aren't summoned simultaneously, in the eyes of the mechanics of the game. So wouldn't "Bottomless Trap Hole" only remove from play the monster summoned by chain link 2? As it was the last summon to have 'resolved'.

Thanks.
 
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That is the exact reason why it shouldn't be allowed.

There was a post on the List about this i while ago, in which a Normal Summon occured and Call of the Haunted was used in chain to BTH to Special Summon Summoned Skull during the same chain.

Call would Special Summon SS, and both monsters would destroyed by BTH.

I agree, you should not be allowed to respond to a summon mid-chain, but they say you can.

I'll see if i can dig it up...
 
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I remember this message now. I never understood that one, but I suppose if they want it to work that way it isn't too much of a stretch. The errata should have reflected that though.
 
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skey23 said:
Woah...wait a minute! Are you sure?

The monsters aren't summoned simultaneously, in the eyes of the mechanics of the game. So wouldn't "Bottomless Trap Hole" only remove from play the monster summoned by chain link 2? As it was the last summon to have 'resolved'.

Thanks.
Click to expand...

That is illogical:

Monster Summoned by player A
Player A no response
Player B plays Bottomless Trap Hole
Player A chains Jar of Greed

Resolve in reverse order:
Jar of Greed resolves, player A draws a card
Bottomless Trap Hole attempts to resolve, but the last effect to resolve was a card being drawn... so should Bottomless Trap Hole miss its timing?

No it doesn't, because the last thing to resolve is only an activation condition:

Now lets explain it with time-stamps. For this we have to remember that time is a dimension so picture time as a road, and the timestamps as mileposts:

[Phase.Chain.Activation.other.]

Player A enters mainphase [MP.00.00.00]
Player A declares a monster summon (Blue-Eyes White Dragon) [MP.00.00.01]
Player A offers Tribute(s) [MP.00.00.02]
Player A places the monster (Blue-Eyes White Dragon) on the field (or shows it to the opponent) [MP.00.00.03]
Player A passes priority [MP.01.00.00]
Player B declares activation of Horn of Heaven [MP.01.00.01]
Player B tributes a monster [MP.01.00.02]
Horn of Heaven is now considered activated [MP.01.01.00]
Player A declares activation of Seven Tools of the Bandit [MP.01.01.01]
Player A pays 1000 Lifepoints [MP.01.01.02]
Seven Tools is now considered activated [MP.01.02.00]
Player B passes priority [MP.01.02.01]
Player A passes priority [MP.01.02.02]
Seven Tools of the Bandit "erases" mp.01.01.00 destroys and sends Horn of Heaven to the graveyard [MP.01.02.03]
(Horn of Heaven doesn't try to resolve)
The summon (of BEWD) is now considered successful [MP.01.02.04]
Player A passes priority [MP.02.00.00]
Player B declares activation of Bottomless Trap Hole [MP.02.00.01]
Bottomless Trap Hole is now activated and sets its sight on the summon stamp mp.01.02.04 [MP.02.01.00]
Player A declares activation of Call of the Haunted [MP.02.01.01]
Player A selects target (Summoned Skull) [MP.02.01.02]
Call of the Haunted is now considered activated [MP.02.02.00]
Player B passes priority [MP.02.02.01]
Player A passes [MP.02.02.02]
Call of the Haunted Resolves summoning Summoned Skull [MP.02.02.03]

Now Bottomless Trap Hole wants to resolve at time stamp MP.02.02.04 here's where the imagination comes in: Bottomless Trap Hole "collapses the road" from time stamp MP.02.02.04 back to the timestamp of BEWD summon MP.01.02.04 . So it collapses 02.02.04 but there's no monster on the road there so nothing happens... it collapses 02.02.03 dropping Summoned Skull into the abyss. It collapses 02.02.01 but there's no monster there so nothing happens... "¦ "¦ finally collapsing 01.02.04, and BEWD falls into the abyss.

That's how it affects both monsters: (and wow this explains the timing of negation effects too, but that's a different thread)
 
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Great Analysis.

The problem i have is that BTH is written in the context of it only affecting the specific event that allowed for it's activation. Even the rulings only state that it can destroy multiple monsters summoned simultaniously. However, in this case the summons are not simultanious, and BTH is responding to 2 different events.

Because of the ruling, Bottomless Trap Hole to me is not, and should not, be compared to Trap Hole. It is actually more like a mini-Torrential Tribute, and is not really directly responding to that specific summon event, but any monster summoned before it resolves.

In the context of YGO mechanics, it doesn't fit very well.
 
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novastar said:
Not true, the event you are responding to has already occured and resolved successfully, that is the activation requirement, THEN the second summon occurs and resolves successfully BEFORE Bottomless resolves.
Click to expand...

Nobody said they were simultaneous. What are you trying to say? Of course the summon resolve before Bottomless Trap Hole resolves, and that's why it gets destroyed with bottomles Trap Hole.

The summons are not simultanious, and BTH is responding to both events.

Because of the ruling, Bottomless is not, and should not, be compared to Trap Hole. It is actually more like a mini-Torrential Tribute, and is not really directly responding to that specific summon, but any monster summoned before it resolves.
Trap Holes doesn't respond to a summon either. It is activated in response to a summon. Its no different then any other card:

Torrential Tribute seeks out monsters on the field,
Trap Hole seeks out its target
Bottomless Trap Hole seeks out monsters "from here to there"

What doesn't fit?
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Click to expand...
 
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novastar said:
Great Analysis.
Click to expand...
Thank you

The problem i have is that BTH is written in the context of it only affecting the specific event that allowed for it's activation. Even the rulings only state that it can destroy multiple monsters summoned simultaniously. However, in this case the summons are not simultanious, and BTH is responding to 2 different events.
Click to expand...
I don't see any of the cards as responding to something. I see that "response" is only an activation event.

Because of the ruling, Bottomless Trap Hole to me is not, and should not, be compared to Trap Hole. It is actually more like a mini-Torrential Tribute, and is not really directly responding to that specific summon event, but any monster summoned before it resolves.

In the context of YGO mechanics, it doesn't fit very well.
Click to expand...

Trap Hole seeks out its target
Torrential Tribute seeks out all monster on the field
Bottomless Trap Hole seeks out monsters "from here to there"

I don't see it as a mechanical question, jsut a case of the effect not being written on the card (for lack of room, perhaps).
 
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Duh!..I complete read that wrong. I thought "BTH" was being chained to "CotH", but that's not possible, since nothing has been summoned yet!..Sorry!
 
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However, it does illustrate that there is no timing for summons that occur mid-chain.

Bottomless Trap Hole should not be able to destroy all summons that occur during the chain that resolved before it.

It should only destroy monster that were summoned in the event that started the chain.
 
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